E bike (Electric bicycle)

[Bonsai Nut]

HaHaHA! Hope their bikes were confiscated along with a huge fine!

No joking - just across the county line in San Diego county there is an area where the National Forest borders Camp Pendleton. Some irresponsible mountain bikers had established some trails that cut through a back-country corner of the camp. The Marines put up signs, but people ignored them. So one Saturday the Marines showed up in force with several trucks, and every biker who came down the trail got ticketed, and their bike was confiscated, and they had to walk out. They got their bikes back after they paid their tickets.

So many people were talking about it on bike forums and social media, there isn't a person anywhere in SoCal who didn't hear about it. The Marines don't have trouble with people cutting through their camp any more

A high end mountain bike now weighs 48 to 53 lbs. Each year they get lighter.

This is the problem ^^^ They aren't "high end mountain bikes". They are e-bikes with knobby tires, a front suspension, and disk brakes. Dirt bikes have them too. People need to stop thinking about them as bikes - because they aren't. They don't follow the same rules of the road, and they don't follow the same trail access rules.

Whoever came up with the name "e-bike" is a marketing genius. If they sold them as e-mopeds or e-motos there would be 1/4 the demand

 

[amatbrewer]

Whoever came up with the name "e-bike" is a marketing genius. If they sold them as e-mopeds or e-motos there would be 1/4 the demand

As I understand it the law, at least in WA State, is 750W or less and governed to a max of 20mph (motor stops pushing @ 20mph) and it is considered a "bike" (but not allowed on natural surfaces e.g. trails). Beyond that it is considered a motor vehicle and subject to the the same laws as a moped or motorcycle.

 

[Michael P]

Question from a long time cyclist: If you don't use the power assist, how do these compare to a normal bicycle of similar configuration?

My favorite "power assist" is to harness my two dogs to the leash attachment and yell "Mush!"

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Question from a long time cyclist: If you don't use the power assist, how do these compare to a normal bicycle of similar configuration?

They are extremely heavy - about 15-25 lbs more than a comparably equipped bike (15 lbs for the lithium batteries and the lower capacity battery packs). They are "difficult to lift into your SUV" heavy. On flat paved surfaces it isn't too bad - almost as if you were biking with a bike camping rig. On downhills they roll fine, but are very sluggish with handling. Because of the motor, very few offer rear suspension. Most have hardtail steel frames, because they need the frame rigidity for the motor, but I am seeing some now with integrated carbon frames. They tend to have lower end components in order to try to keep the costs down... but I have seen some really high-end ones approaching $10K that had pretty good specs.

They are a lot of fun to ride - particularly in conditions where normal biking becomes tough - like sand or snow or loose rock. This is a mixed blessing - they have a reputation for tearing up the trails because some riders don't stay in the travel lines - because they don't need to. Just like electric cars, don't believe the range specs. If you are using the bike to climb, you burn up charge very quickly. On paved flat conditions, the charge lasts substantially longer.

You should look for an e-bike store in your area. Many have loaners, or they will have "demo days" at a local park. They are a riot.

Not an e-bike, but wished it was. This is, by the way, a legal e-bike trail in Cleveland National Forest:

 

[substratum]

No joking - just across the county line in San Diego county there is an area where the National Forest borders Camp Pendleton. Some irresponsible mountain bikers had established some trails that cut through a back-country corner of the camp. The Marines put up signs, but people ignored them. So one Saturday the Marines showed up in force with several trucks, and every biker who came down the trail got ticketed, and their bike was confiscated, and they had to walk out. They got their bikes back after they paid their tickets.

So many people were talking about it on bike forums and social media, there isn't a person anywhere in SoCal who didn't hear about it. The Marines don't have any trouble with people cutting through their camp any more

In the 1980s, I handled health and human services-related board and counsel appointments for an agency head and the governor, which included a detailed questionnaire, an interview, and a FBI fingerprint background check of the nominees. It was amazing how many nominees had some sort of "trespass on a military installation" type charge on their record, or (unrelated to this topic - an "indecent exposure" record). Some of the nominees had dozens of trespass charges on a rap sheet. The trespass charges were almost exclusively related to '60s-'70s-era protest movements (mostly anti-war, anti-nuke, and civil rights), and the indecent exposure charges were related to either streaking, or college drunkenness... I know, because nominees were interviewed about anomalies on the rap sheet, and provided a supporting narrative (many of these were subject to Senate confirmation, too). BTW, not one of these folks was ever denied the appointment or confirmation due to those types of charges on a rap sheet. I bet it would be different, today.

(I did process one nominee living under a false identity, who had been declared criminally insane by the courts years earlier, had active wants and warrants, that somehow eluded authorities for years. He had a VERY violent background [blades & firearms, armed robbery, harm to victims, bloodshed, etc], was married to a lovely woman under his alias - with a child, and he was stupid enough to let us fingerprint him and submit it to the FBI. He didn't get the appointment, and ended up back in state custody. Good times.)

 

[amatbrewer]

Question from a long time cyclist: If you don't use the power assist, how do these compare to a normal bicycle of similar configuration?

My favorite "power assist" is to harness my two dogs to the leash attachment and yell "Mush!"

I concur with what BNut said. My bike uses 4" fat tires and is about 65lbs! So it is not easy to get in/out of my truck.
The mass of the fat tires is very obvious when starting from a full stop, the effort needed to get them rolling is quite noticeable if not using the peddle assist, but once rolling it tends to move along nicely. FYI the reverse is also true...good breaks are a must in my opinion. I have done 10 miles on flat (with some slight declines) paved trail without needing to use any power assist.
As for range...there are so many variables (terrain, speed, wind, even temperature) that it is impossible to even give rough estimates.
I do have a buddy who is an avid cyclist and in addition to his other bikes he has two e-bikes. One for him and a tandem that he built for him and his wife to ride together.

As I mentioned I had two objectives, replace my vehicle for my short commute, and for use on packed snow trails. But since getting them, my wife and I keep finding new uses such as using them to get around when camping, and even running to some of the pubs that are near our house. FYI I understand the DUI laws for bikes are exactly the same as for cars, and good luck getting an UBER that can take two large bikes!

I would also echo the advice to try some before making a decision as there are some considerations that may depend on your individual needs that can make a BIG difference in performance and cost. We have rented a few different bikes and I have ridden some owned by friends, so I had a rather good idea of what I wanted/needed. But it was still a hard choice and I am already considering a few 'upgrades' [shhh, don't tell my wife].

 

[c54fun]

I concur with what BNut said. My bike uses 4" fat tires and is about 65lbs! So it is not easy to get in/out of my truck.
The mass of the fat tires is very obvious when starting from a full stop, the effort needed to get them rolling is quite noticeable if not using the peddle assist, but once rolling it tends to move along nicely. FYI the reverse is also true...good breaks are a must in my opinion. I have done 10 miles on flat (with some slight declines) paved trail without needing to use any power assist.
As for range...there are so many variables (terrain, speed, wind, even temperature) that it is impossible to even give rough estimates.
I do have a buddy who is an avid cyclist and in addition to his other bikes he has two e-bikes. One for him and a tandem that he built for him and his wife to ride together.

As I mentioned I had two objectives, replace my vehicle for my short commute, and for use on packed snow trails. But since getting them, my wife and I keep finding new uses such as using them to get around when camping, and even running to some of the pubs that are near our house. FYI I understand the DUI laws for bikes are exactly the same as for cars, and good luck getting an UBER that can take two large bikes!

I would also echo the advice to try some before making a decision as there are some considerations that may depend on your individual needs that can make a BIG difference in performance and cost. We have rented a few different bikes and I have ridden some owned by friends, so I had a rather good idea of what I wanted/needed. But it was still a hard choice and I am already considering a few 'upgrades' [shhh, don't tell my wife].

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Thats a cool picture. I bet its a challenge riding in the snow. I'm sure the fat tires help along with the extra weight for traction.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

So cool to see Pacific Crest Trail signs up in WA! When we go camping in San Bernadino National Forest, we often hike up to the trail. The junction is at 8100 feet, and it is usually good hiking even in the middle of summer.

 

[LanceMac10]

.....be honest with ya'll, I've seen dudes get just as swollen when they're on these full suspended rigs!!


I raced in three different organizations on a BMX 20", pretty hardcore I might add. Learning to ride a bike with front shocks wasn't so bad, but full-suspension? Basically your just shifting your weight and lettin' the bike flow....boring!!! Disc brakes blow, gimmie back my center-pulls!!! Are the shifters still push-push? Loved the trigger-push Shimano used to make.

Got a Specialized EPIC Comp, sucks on the street, sluggish and sllllloooow steering. Did I mention these things pinch-flat like it's going out of style?


Know how to ride a bike for real? Downhill rigs will make you look spectacular. On a downhill. Shot 30+ rickety wooden steps at a good clip to a phonebooth sized roll-out....only one testes shrinkage, so there was room for more!!!


Sweet kit, Greg!!! How do you like those 29"ers? I think these are the only way to get a rigid bike these days, using the 29" rims.

 

[LanceMac10]

I use my foot as a brake on the road, unhooked the front years ago!!! 'Course, this is a girl's Columbia "metro" style I beat on!!!!

 

[c54fun]

Question from a long time cyclist: If you don't use the power assist, how do these compare to a normal bicycle of similar configuration?

My favorite "power assist" is to harness my two dogs to the leash attachment and yell "Mush!"

You asked how they compare with assist off. My good bike has an off setting, eco,std, high and it also has a setting to give it just enough power to overcome the drag of the motor and extra weight. This setting makes it feel very simular to a regular bike and the range is extreemly high because its putting in a very very small amount of assist. It feels like a normal bike in this mode. With the assist turn off it feels heavy.

You can buy them in any configuration you want. Rode bike, full suspention, hard tail, soft tail, cruiser, fat tire, small tire, steel, carbon fiber, differnt sizes, step over, step thru ect...

My Haibike was a 2018 model. $2400 new. Since it is last years model I've seem them as low as $1500 to $1600 because they are last years model. Mine was $1800 out the door. For this price you get a very nice bike. Considered the low end of a high end bike if that makes sense. The torque sensor and brakes are my favorite on my bike. Just love the brakes.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Sweet kit, Greg!!! How do you like those 29"ers? I think these are the only way to get a rigid bike these days, using the 29" rims.

I've got my old 26" hanging on the ceiling in my garage. I thought I would continue to ride it, but the 29" wheels just work better for the riding I do. My previous 29" (that I just retired a couple of months ago) was a cross-country monster, but I didn't really like how it rode on technical single track. It only had 100mm travel on the front fork, and I was rolling 2.1" tires on it, so it was fast, but sketchy on downhills, particularly in loose rock (which there is a lot of where I ride).

The new bike has an enduro frame with a slack head tube angle so it rides lower than my last bike. It also has 150mm travel on the front fork and boost axles so I can roll wider tires (2.4" full mountain). I also went from 100mm to 150mm on my seat dropper post, so when I head downhill I can get that seat out of the way. The only complaint I have is that I was riding in mud about a month ago and after I got home and cleaned off the bike, there was a lot more wear on the inside of the rear triangle than I am used to. I am actually in the process of seeing if I can get a replacement... after which I will stay out of the mud

The other thing about the 29" wheels is that I am 6' tall and ride a large frame bike. I'm not sure if they would work as well on a smaller frame, or if you are shorter. They might feel big and a little unwieldy - which is why I think a lot of folks are going to the 27.5". I built the wheels myself, so they are a mix of different components. I like lacing and balancing wheels... not sure why, but I find it relaxing. Plus I know they are perfectly balanced, unlike the wonky wheels you get from the store most of the time

 

[amatbrewer]

Thats a cool picture. I bet its a challenge riding in the snow. I'm sure the fat tires help along with the extra weight for traction.

It depends on the conditions. We don't allow more than 6psi (preferably 4psi) on the groomed trails which makes a big difference. If the snow is packed and hard it is a lot like riding on moderately packed dirt...but crashing is much more forgiving. You have not lived until you have done an endo and slid for about another 30' on the snow giggling.
My favorite was a midnight ride in the spring. The snow had been really soft all day (we don't allow bikes if the snow is too soft) but froze after sunset. I also had the trails to myself (not many folks have learned how totally amazing night hike/ski/snowshoeing can be). I was flying around the trails having the time of my life!

 

[amatbrewer]

So cool to see Pacific Crest Trail signs up in WA! When we go camping in San Bernadino National Forest, we often hike up to the trail. The junction is at 8100 feet, and it is usually good hiking even in the middle of summer.

I am not a through hiker myself, but some of my favorite trails connect to or follow sections of the PCT, and I really like the people/concept of the PCT, so I also help do trail maintenance for the PCTA. I am also the steward of one section.

 

[amatbrewer]

So cool to see Pacific Crest Trail signs up in WA! When we go camping in San Bernadino National Forest, we often hike up to the trail. The junction is at 8100 feet, and it is usually good hiking even in the middle of summer.

BTW I need to se if during one of my SoCa trips (my wife's family are mostly in the Pasadena area so we visit at least once or twice a year) I can hook up with some of the BNuts in the area to see some trees and learn a thing or three.
Also it is it has been a few years (5?) since I have been to Huntington Gardens...I am itching to go again. I love that place!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

BTW I need to se if during one of my SoCa trips (my wife's family are mostly in the Pasadena area so we visit at least once or twice a year) I can hook up with some of the BNuts in the area to see some trees and learn a thing or three.
Also it is it has been a few years (5?) since I have been to Huntington Gardens...I am itching to go again. I love that place!

Let me know! As @Brian Van Fleet can attest... I don't need much of an excuse to do some bonsai tour-guiding!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Sweet kit, Greg!!! How do you like those 29"ers? I think these are the only way to get a rigid bike these days, using the 29" rims.

Just to add a major point - the new build is a 12 speed with no front derailleur. A lot of guys I bike with are hardcore single speed / hard-trail guys, but I don't think I will ever lose the cassette or the rear suspension. But 12 gears is more than enough for me! Brings me back to my old Schwinn 10-speed days! Funny how we always seem to come full circle like that. Mopeds are coming back, 10 speeds, single speeds, and now "no suspension" bikes are the cool "new" thing, LOL!

 

[LanceMac10]

I was going to ask about your crank set as it looks like you and @Colorado where running the new 2x12 gear set-up. So it's just the one chain ring for you both?

This innovation I like, should greatly reduce "chainsuck" at the bottom bracket, am I right?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

So it's just the one chain ring for you both? This innovation I like, should greatly reduce "chainsuck" at the bottom bracket, am I right?

I have never had a problem with chainsuck, partly because I clean and lube my chain every ride. It is the one part of my bike that gets the most attention. However the benefits of no front derailleur are multiple (1) lower cost (2) lower weight (3) one less thing to break (4) one less control to put on your bars (5) one less thing to manage during your ride. My last three bikes were 3 x 9, 2 x 11, 1 x 12. The only thing I am concerned about is wear on the front chainring.

Some folks use a chain guide / bash guard on the front, but I have not yet seen the need for one. Tension on the chain is really high and I haven't had a problem with the chain dropping off the front... with the exception of riding in the mud which I promise myself I will stop doing And if I am hitting big rocks with my front chainring... I have other problems that I need to deal with

 

[barrosinc]

I broke my chinese carbon 29er last year and rebought the same frame. I am using deore 3x10. But had been thinking of doing the 1x12.
I wouldn't go the no suspension way... that seems nuts.
I don't really mind e-mtb whenever these are for people that can no longer ride as much. I have a friend whose dad bought one, he used to do a lot of mountain biking in his days, but now needs a bit of help.