Eastern Hemlock - Bonsai suitable?

berobinson82

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Hey Nomad you mind posting some pictures. I would love to see them. I was down there again today and took a couple more pics.
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This one is not hemlock. I might see what it is in spring when the leaves come back.
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That unidentified trunk looks just like the carpinus carolinia that I've been collecting for the past 2 years.
 

berobinson82

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Here's how I do it:

I do a flat cut low. If you don't cut the bark all the way around before dropping the tree, the bark will tear down one side... So I "ring" the trunk. I've collected in January up until March before bud break. I believe that the later you collect the better chance you have at the stump living since late freezes are undesirable. Also you have to store less stumpage in the garage. Take more roots than you need but that tap root needs to go. I use a reciprocating saw to dig these since the wood is so hard. I've lost smaller collected hornbeam but never a larger one.

This year, I've found a carpinus that has a great nebari and excellent taper down low. I'm going to plant it back in my back yard and see how it develops. Let's compare notes when you get to it.
 

Cypress

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Eastern Hemlock do make decent bonsai but in order to get them to look like something you must utilize the second flush of growth. If you do that they ramify really well even though the growth is a bit flaccid compared to Western and Mountain Hemlock. I had one for about 10 years and it was looking pretty good when some fungus came through and took it out.

Oh yea, I've seen a few really nice examples on the web. I wasn't trying to say they won't make bonsai, I was more or less describing all the walls I ran into while trying to research the species as bonsai and how frustrating the lack of information or conflicting information there was out there! :confused:

Really what I wanted to get across was to just be careful about collecting the wrong specimen. Because there's alot of wrong E.H. specimens to be collected ;) .

I saw you mention the 'second flush' earlier in the thread and wondered if you could clarify that for me. I may just be over-thinking it. But basically prune back twice in a growing season so that it ramifies faster and with tighter foliage? You're not talking about trying to make it back bud or anything like that?

Thanks Vance
-Mike
 

Cypress

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Here is my Eastern Hemlock I picked up at a nursery this past summer, I believe around late July/early August. It's probably around 2 feet tall, soda can for size reference, with the base of the main trunk probably a bit over an inch wide, though the trunk goes lower under the current soil line and below where the main and secondary trunk meet it approaches 2 inches. I just havent gotten around to cleaning out all the extra soil on the surface yet.

When I got it home I did a relatively hard prune, basically getting rid of what I know I won't need. If you see the branch stubs on the lower part of the trunk, those were all about a foot in length (the tree was kind of an overgrown mess) and though it's hard to see in the picture, most of those stubs still have a bit of foliage on them, which has stayed completely healthy up to now so the hard prune really didn't affect the health of the tree/remaining foliage much at all, thankfully! So those bits of foliage left will eventually be developed into dense lower branching. I did a little very minor pruning today just before the pictures were taken.

I plan on creating a twin trunk, possibly incorporating a third smaller trunk from one of the three sacrifice branches I've left on in order to further develop taper. The pictures show the tree from opposite sides. I think I will probably go with the right hand picture as my front, I like the secondary trunk on the right and very slightly in the background like that.

I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks of the tree, advice/suggestions, where would you take this tree if it was yours?

-Mike

EH1.jpg EH2.jpg
 
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Oh yea, I've seen a few really nice examples on the web. I wasn't trying to say they won't make bonsai, I was more or less describing all the walls I ran into while trying to research the species as bonsai and how frustrating the lack of information or conflicting information there was

Hope we few on here trying eastern hemlock can fill the gap. On some of those smaller ones with the twisted trunks couldn't I wire down the apex into itself and develop it inside itself.
 

Cypress

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Yea, i don't see why not. Get creative. I feel like this is one of those species that you kind of have to get a little more creative with to make it reach it's full potential. From those pictures it's a little hard for me to gauge how far up the trunk the foliage actually is, but some of those have really interesting trunks. Especially a couple of the smaller ones that look like they're growing right out of crevices in the rock. It's all about what you see in the tree. Just try to choose one with the foliage as close to the base of the trunk as possible and it will probably make your life a whole lot easier.
 

Nomad

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Hey Jim, welcome to Bnut! I'm glad you're looking into eastern hemlocks as bonsai, it's good to know at least a few people are haha. So I started getting interested in bonsai last winter, and now I'm hooked of course. One of the first few tree species I looked into for potential bonsai was Eastern Hemlock as this is one of my favorite tree species in general, they're absolutely stunning in the forests around here and I've seen very very old Hemlocks in patches of old growth forest in the Adirondacks that are just huge.

So you can imagine how let down I was when it was incredibly hard to find even a few examples of people working with this tree and even on this forum being told they're next to impossible to work with, or at least that it would be a fight the whole way. BUT I love this species so I'm going for it anyway. Lancaster's tree is one of the nicest I've seen, so that's kind of an inspiration to go for it.

As Nomad mentioned they're especially finicky with soil, but I think the bigger issue is actually finding a suitable tree to collect in the wild. This dawned on me when I went for a walk in the woods this past spring to scout out hemlocks that were suitable for collecting. And I left the woods convinced that they don't exist!!!! Basically the issue is that with most any wild growing Eastern Hemlock, the foliage or even first branch is SO FAR from the base of the trunk that the best bonsai you'd ever get out of the average tree in the forest is a 5 foot tall trunk with a bit of green at the top. And as far as I understand, Hemlocks don't really backbud much, but I could be wrong.

BUT, all hope is not lost... this goes back to what nomad was saying about searching for those very few hemlocks that are growing in adverse conditions that may be naturally dwarfed. So I'll conclude my rant now, but I just noticed most of the trees in your pictures do not have foliage anywhere near the base of the trunk, though some really interesting trunks and trees! But regardless, you would not want to collect anything like that, but search around as much as you can and see what you find. They're out there somewhere! They've got to be!!!! :)

I have yet to find a suitable hemlock in the wild, I really only scouted in the forest a couple times, but I plan on checking out as many areas as I can next spring. If anyone knows where there are some scraggly dwarfish hemlocks in NY I'm all ears.

Though I did manage to buy a small hemlock from a nursery this past summer, maybe 2 feet tall with a decently thick trunk, and with much thicker branching and foliage than what you would normally find in the wild. Haven't done much with it yet, but I'll snap a photo and post it up here tomorrow. I'd love any suggestions or advice.

I should note that the adverse growing conditions are extremely harsh on the Hemlocks: they will almost definitely die if you find them in such conditions before their time is through. Thus, their age is likely young maturity to immature. If you thought Bonsai was a test to patience, well let's see how waiting for a batch of immature Hemlocks to mature works for me.
 

Cypress

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Thus, their age is likely young maturity to immature. If you thought Bonsai was a test to patience, well let's see how waiting for a batch of immature Hemlocks to mature works for me.
Haha, yea really. Hemlocks are painfully slow growing as far as I know. Which makes sense when you look at their niche in forest ecology, they pretty much only grow in the understory in full shade, live incredibly long and are predominant in old growth forests. At least in New York most places you find hemlocks, they've not reached their full size or potential age! Some of the islands in lakes in the Adirondacks have really phenomenal Hemlock old growth forest left intact. They managed to escape the loggers and the huge fires up there in the early 1900's. where a lot of mainland is pretty young forest compose of maple/beech among others. I went to a forestry school btw, hah. I find forest succession very interesting.
 
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Nomad

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Some of the islands in lakes in the Adirondacks have really phenomenal Hemlock old growth forest left intact. They managed to escape the loggers and the huge fires up there in the early 1900's. where a lot of mainland is pretty young forest compose of maple/beech among others. I went to a forestry school btw, hah. I find forest succession very interesting.

Who doesn't find forestry absolutely fascinating?!? It is a small passion of mine, though I am educated only in my logic, not college. Though on a few occasions, my logic has been my failing. Nevertheless, my favorite Hemlock Grove is the Route 9 Trailhead area of Rocky Peak Ridge in Elizabethtown. It somehow managed to avoid a great fire which claimed much of Rocky Peak Ridge and Giant Mountain, as well as much of the wilderness. There in the High Peaks I see my favorite trees, the decades-old Balsam Firs, the frontier trees as they're called, that grow on rock slides and scrambles, many many decades old yet still only a few feet tall.
 
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This was collected a little less than a year ago. I've heard not to get too excited over the first years growth as it is such a slow grower that it could be going on reserves and I was kind of rough with this guy in the collection process. I've only done very light branch selection this year, but if all goes well I should decide on the new apex sometime in the next year. I also need to decide to do with the big crossing branch. I know that generally they are no nos, but it does add interest and I am missing a branch where it comes out. It almost looks like it has grafted itself in place so I may cut off the crossing part and see if the branch lives.

I just realized how terrible my photo is. I though the tripod would help, but I guess not. It is a difficult subject as other then my initial chopping to get the thing to fit in my trunk, I have tried to keep as many options as possible open, so it is very busy right now. I will try and post some better photos, but I may need to take to a workshop to get styling advice... Next year.
 

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Vance Wood

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This was collected a little less than a year ago. I've heard not to get too excited over the first years growth as it is such a slow grower that it could be going on reserves and I was kind of rough with this guy in the collection process. I've only done very light branch selection this year, but if all goes well I should decide on the new apex sometime in the next year. I also need to decide to do with the big crossing branch. I know that generally they are no nos, but it does add interest and I am missing a branch where it comes out. It almost looks like it has grafted itself in place so I may cut off the crossing part and see if the branch lives.

I just realized how terrible my photo is. I though the tripod would help, but I guess not. It is a difficult subject as other then my initial chopping to get the thing to fit in my trunk, I have tried to keep as many options as possible open, so it is very busy right now. I will try and post some better photos, but I may need to take to a workshop to get styling advice... Next year.

Part of growing is in recognizing you are in need of education. The beginning of wisdom is getting the education.
 

Cypress

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This was collected a little less than a year ago. I've heard not to get too excited over the first years growth as it is such a slow grower that it could be going on reserves and I was kind of rough with this guy in the collection process. I've only done very light branch selection this year, but if all goes well I should decide on the new apex sometime in the next year. I also need to decide to do with the big crossing branch. I know that generally they are no nos, but it does add interest and I am missing a branch where it comes out. It almost looks like it has grafted itself in place so I may cut off the crossing part and see if the branch lives.

I just realized how terrible my photo is. I though the tripod would help, but I guess not. It is a difficult subject as other then my initial chopping to get the thing to fit in my trunk, I have tried to keep as many options as possible open, so it is very busy right now. I will try and post some better photos, but I may need to take to a workshop to get styling advice... Next year.

Hmm... well it looks like there is new growth on some of the tips? (the lighter green). But as of now I don't particularly see how you're going to have an apex decided this year. The trunk is very thin too. Though, for a collected hemlock, it does have many low branches which is a good thing. Honestly I would just recommend being EXTREMELY careful with how much you work on this tree, and I think the best thing you could do for it this season is to let it grow, in almost full shade, untouched. It seems to be very easy to kill an eastern hemlock, and also by letting it just grow you will hopefully thicken the trunk some and thicken branches until you have something that you can better design...
 

Vance Wood

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Eastern Hemlock are predominantly understory trees and will tolerate a good deal more shade than most conifers. However I think this tree needs a bit more sun than you are giving it currently. Once the spring growth extends out cut it back to two groups of needles and you will get a second flush of new growth and you can start to thicken the thing up. Avoid letting it extend too much without new growth forming on the branches, they do not back bud well on lignified wood. I had an Eastern Hem for quite a number of years and lost it to a particularly bad hot spell and lack of good care with it.
 
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Can you see the crossing branch I am wondering about? I know it breaks rules, but it is natural. I've thought about clipping it where the flash shadow is in order to see if it has grafted. since it is part of where four other second branches come out from, it will likely lead to more reverse taper. And some of the more traditionally angled branches have some inner growth pretty close to the trunk.
I do appreciate the good advice from both of you even if slightly contradicting. I think I will move to more sun this year as I am not too worried yet about Lentz' warning about the foliage jumping straight up in full sun. I won't however focus on ramification quite yet either. There is some inner growth from the severe chopping it received last year

Those are kwansan droppings all over the lawn. You should have seen it a week ago from the hammock. It was like a wedding for a Barbie army's.
 

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LeonardB

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Eastern Hemlock are predominantly understory trees and will tolerate a good deal more shade than most conifers. However I think this tree needs a bit more sun than you are giving it currently. Once the spring growth extends out cut it back to two groups of needles and you will get a second flush of new growth and you can start to thicken the thing up. Avoid letting it extend too much without new growth forming on the branches, they do not back bud well on lignified wood. I had an Eastern Hem for quite a number of years and lost it to a particularly bad hot spell and lack of good care with it.
Vance,
I obtained this prostrate in very early spring and repotted in bonsai soil. It had been sitting in the same nursery soil for how many years the owner of the nursery couldn't say ( he had said he had it sitting in his back forty with others over eight years ). The trunk was so impressive, I had to give it a try. It is in recovery now and looking pretty wimpy. Could use some helpful hints to perk it up before winter.
Thanks,
Leonard
 

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Vance Wood

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I would start throwing some Osmocote on it, little by little. Build up its strength and color. How much did you reduce the roots? How long ago? I would not worry that much about winter but I would find it a place under cover, sheltered from the worst of winter winds.
 
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Nice hemlock, I like it. It looks like the long straight section could be reduced to one of the mid branches as an apex, at some point, although no rush other than it will give it more time to heal. From second hand experience I hear that these take to one point grafts readily.. just an option if you really want a branch where there isn't one since they don't back bud onto wood.

Mine has been trucking along although it suffered a few broken branches (not vital, but I liked them) when the kids were playing in the sprinklers and one of the neighboring three Y.O.s ran straight into it. I really need to build a bench. I've been using high dose agri-form fertilizer tablets and it has been rewarding me with prodigious growth. I actually picked up another subject at home depot this year to experiment with.

Vance.. when are you going to get a new hemlock subject? I think these are not as fragile as some make out; case in point, I've kept mine alive for as long as I have.
 

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Vance Wood

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Nice hemlock, I like it. It looks like the long straight section could be reduced to one of the mid branches as an apex, at some point, although no rush other than it will give it more time to heal. From second hand experience I hear that these take to one point grafts readily.. just an option if you really want a branch where there isn't one since they don't back bud onto wood.

Mine has been trucking along although it suffered a few broken branches (not vital, but I liked them) when the kids were playing in the sprinklers and one of the neighboring three Y.O.s ran straight into it. I really need to build a bench. I've been using high dose agri-form fertilizer tablets and it has been rewarding me with prodigious growth. I actually picked up another subject at home depot this year to experiment with.

Vance.. when are you going to get a new hemlock subject? I think these are not as fragile as some make out; case in point, I've kept mine alive for as long as I have.
When I find one worth of the effort. The nurseries around here are seriously lacking in stuff right now.
 
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