Eastern white pines needle reduction (pic)

[DrGreenthumb]

So I watched a lot of videos and read a great deal. But for some reason pines and spruce are a bit harder for me to grasp.

I just removed a couple buds from each site before they really broke and this is one year in the ground. I don't plan on using this as bonsai, since it's skinny and uninteresting for now.

But am I on the right track here? Would I do this technique every year or every other? Is it safe to remove the old long needles if this were a bonsai? I really haven't seen much on developing eastern white pines, for the obvious reasons. But I was kinda surprised at the needle reduction I achieved in one year, in the ground. Anyway just looking for some answers I guess

 

[ysrgrathe]

I'm not clear -- what technique did you use? Removing buds won't affect needle length....

 

[DrGreenthumb]

I'm not clear -- what technique did you use? Removing buds won't affect needle length....

Sorry I meant candles not buds, but I'd remove a couple Instead of clipping them. Before they open up though Lightly pinch/twist more or less. I just used the same concept from a Ryan Neil JWP video i saw. Leaving two maybe three depending on how many were on each tip. I was under the impression pruning effects needle length?

 

[0soyoung]

One can also treat them like a pinus thunbergii (Japanese black pine - prune new shoots in June, give or take, depending on your location) to obtain radically smaller/shorter needles. However, doing so in successive years tends to kill branches because they aren't productive enough.

I'm not clear about just what your technique is, but knocking all the buds/candles off in March/April is a standard technique to pop fascicular buds in the same season. Shearing them about this same time is what Pinus strobus Christmas tree growers do to increase ramification/branch-density - they do it sometime around March.

Pruning in the fall (Oct/Nov) also seems to produce fascicular budding with which I have had fair success maintaining the size of some dwarf EWP over the last several years. Then the following spring I cut back to those interior buds; if there are no such buds, I knock the terminal candles off.

Aside from the JBP treatment, none of these methods seems to have much effect on needle length. I presume restriction of nitrogen and/or water until the new shoots are hardened does - starvation makes every living thing shrink, though it may really be just 'wasting away'.

 

[DrGreenthumb]

One can also treat them like a pinus thunbergii (Japanese black pine - prune new shoots in June, give or take, depending on your location) to obtain radically smaller/shorter needles. However, doing so in successive years tends to kill branches because they aren't productive enough.

I'm not clear about just what your technique is, but knocking all the buds/candles off in March/April is a standard technique to pop fascicular buds in the same season. Shearing them about this same time is what Pinus strobus Christmas tree growers do to increase ramification/branch-density - they do it sometime around March.

Pruning in the fall (Oct/Nov) also seems to produce fascicular budding with which I have had fair success maintaining the size of some dwarf EWP over the last several years. Then the following spring I cut back to those interior buds; if there are no such buds, I knock the terminal candles off.

Aside from the JBP treatment, none of these methods seems to have much effect on needle length. I presume restriction of nitrogen and/or water until the new shoots are hardened does - starvation makes every living thing shrink, though it may really be just 'wasting away'.

One can also treat them like a pinus thunbergii (Japanese black pine - prune new shoots in June, give or take, depending on your location) to obtain radically smaller/shorter needles. However, doing so in successive years tends to kill branches because they aren't productive enough.

I'm not clear about just what your technique is, but knocking all the buds/candles off in March/April is a standard technique to pop fascicular buds in the same season. Shearing them about this same time is what Pinus strobus Christmas tree growers do to increase ramification/branch-density - they do it sometime around March.

Pruning in the fall (Oct/Nov) also seems to produce fascicular budding with which I have had fair success maintaining the size of some dwarf EWP over the last several years. Then the following spring I cut back to those interior buds; if there are no such buds, I knock the terminal candles off.

Aside from the JBP treatment, none of these methods seems to have much effect on needle length. I presume restriction of nitrogen and/or water until the new shoots are hardened does - starvation makes every living thing shrink, though it may really be just 'wasting away'.

Thanks for the reply, definitely need to read more on pines before I dig one up for bonsai.

That one is in a weird spot in the yard, just messed with it last spring removing some of the candles/buds. I'm sure it's a combo of little sunlight and suffering roots, causing the needle shortening. Since It's not caused by pruning. It's not a very healthy tree.

 

[It's Kev]

Ryan Neil's videos are very good (to a guy who knows nothing...like me) so I find them all and then download for later reference. And his teaching style is very interrogative, it makes me feel more like an idiot. But it seems like you can learn a lot from him.

 

[It's Kev]

Exp

Thanks for the reply, definitely need to read more on pines before I dig one up for bonsai.

That one is in a weird spot in the yard, just messed with it last spring removing some of the candles/buds. I'm sure it's a combo of little sunlight and suffering roots, causing the needle shortening. Since It's not caused by pruning. It's not a very healthy tree.

Experiment on a tree that you can afford to lose/ruin first

 

[DrGreenthumb]

Exp

Experiment on a tree that you can afford to lose/ruin first

Oh I have probably 15 in the yard, and 10 or so in grow boxes. All my pre bonsai are deciduous for now though. few spruce, white pines and some juniper in the yard. But pines/spruce I'm the least familiar with.

I'm just messing with native stuff for now. Seems like they are all pretty much shunned by serious enthusiasts (red maples, red oak) and some honey suckles and a few forsythia.

 

[Potawatomi13]

One can almost bet P. strobus haters/know it alls will show up soon with typical negative attitudes. Technique that works for many or most trees/plants is witholding most fertilizer and using only half strength when used until hardened off before heavy feeding to develop new buds latter part of summer. Thinning spring candles/sprouts for future branch selection leaving only medium/weakest in upper part of tree may also help give smaller needles. Use small fine pruner instead of picking candles off.
These techniques also have negative effect on developing trunk size so growing sacrifice branch or two in lower 1/2-1/3 of trunk will help offset. These could be done yearly as long as not overdone.

 

[Potawatomi13]

shunned by serious enthusiasts

Shunned by strict TRADITIONALISTS and snobs. Many serious enthusiasts find beauty in non traditional trees, use and experiment with these.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Now, now, I don't hate strobus, I am simply frustrated with strobus. We "haters" mostly got there by trying to work with strobus. I have struggled with as many as 10 at a time, have a few right now. I have fought with strobus for over 30 years. Started my first in 1979. Kept one for 25 years before composting it. I always have a few. But they aren't good bonsai. Go ahead and try, I still am. But you will eventually join the frustrated club.

But a better use of time would be other native pines, like pitch pine, Virginia pine, shortleaf pine, pinion pine, limber pine, southwestern white pine, jack pine, ponderosa pine, lodgepole pine & the two non-natives Scott's pine and mugo pine. All will give you decent bonsai in near the same time frame you would put into a JBP or a JWP.

There's more native species I left off the list, but of these listed, you can find images of all of them as decent bonsai.

 

[Giga]

I have one and like the species - frustrating but it can be done

 

[DrGreenthumb]

Yeah I really don't plan on using one for bonsai, was just unclear as to why the needles shortened. I think they will be fun to mess with, and leave them a little bigger in the yard though

 

[A. Gorilla]

My dad had a thing for EWP. Didn't do bonsai, but he dug up a lot to transplant to various parts of our Wisconsin property for privacy and windbreaks. That and balsam fir.

He kept some in pots just for fun. Didn't do bonsai, per se. BUT...I spent many years screwing with them as a kid with a little dubious knowledge from bonsai books.

A couple things I accidentally discovered:

1. Due to our circumstances they were dug up in early summer, thrown into pots and literally ignored for a year fully-exposed, above-ground. Not saying that's ideal, I don't remember a single loss. If you want to talk about indestructible...

2. Don't hold your breath about developing decent bark. BUT....one tree in particular I kept up-potting. Turns out, if you keep exposing a tap root, THAT portion of the tree gets a bit "barky". If I were to undertake a project I would grow a tap root as if I were trying to grow a trunk and count on that for future exposure. And/or bury a lot of the current trunk for a good long time.

3. Due to incomplete knowledge from books with JBP, I completely de-candled in June. I wound-up with a huge bushy mass of foliage. I don't know what kind of new shoots I was developing, but there was no shortage of them.

As an aside for another native, one might want to give some thought to looking for deer-bitten balsam fir. I distinctly remember some of those, but I wasn't in the yamadori mind-set at the time. But looking back, I remember some beauts. So, for the cheese-heads, yoopers, and Canucks that's an FYI. Also very indestructible in pots.

 

[Dav4]

EWP is one of my top 5 species of trees... for the large landscape planting. No hating here, either, but I worked one with a descent trunk for several years while I lived in MA and it proved not worthy enough to make the long drive south to GA.