Estonio - This is not a contest Tree

Orion_metalhead

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I like the decision to prune the top now and not let it grow wild. For one, it will take less time for the chop to heal over. It also starts the process of creating taper. Nice progress on this.

For my bigger trees, i use cut down empty 5g buckets from the hardware store. If you know anyone in contruction, ask them for their empty 5g paint or spackle buckets and cut them down to 5-6" tall. Throw some holes in the bottom and youve got an excellent grow out container.
 

Estonio

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Now without leaves looks like this and I need to take another decision....

20191208_120423.jpg

From the bottom the second section of thre trunk is still pretty straight and long tohkut internode. So I wonder whether I should cut after the first internode and start from scratch or I would continuo with current design (1 first branch, 2 second branch, T back branch, 3 third branch, A apex)

What do you think?
IMG-20191208-WA0010.jpg
20191208_124306.jpg
IMG-20191208-WA0017.jpeg
 

Estonio

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14 months later... I still wonder if I should chop the trunk after the first internode... Last year I plant it in a less slating angle

1613311719252.png
1613311746714.png

Option A (with some imagination and luck with the branch positioning..):

1613311804212.png

Option B: To start it from scratch (the branch on the left which could be new apex could be very difficult to make it straigh up without breaking, it´s quite lignified):

1613311898944.png

Ideas?
 

Hack Yeah!

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I think you and I may be the only 2 left posting to this contest thread. I think if you have a strong rootbase I'd go with the lower cut
 

Forsoothe!

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This thread is good illustration of what’s wrong with chop & grow. First, it needs to be renamed for what it really is: chop & watch. That’s it, just chop & watch. Maybe, if it grows exactly how someone wants it to grow everything will be alright. That never, ever happens. It needs to be upgraded to chop & control growth with wire and watchful bud pruning. Just chop & watch branches jut out at funny angles from wherever a bud emerges leads to these kinds of non-plans 23 months later to do it all over again. There is no point in letting something grow on a tree in “training” without actually “training” it to go here or do this or that. If it’s a sacrifice branch it doesn’t have to be wired, but if it is not specifically a sacrifice branch it has no business on the tree except to be regulated by the person in-charge of designing the tree. The sooner the position of a bud or emerging stem is critiqued and either eliminated or assigned a potential goal position in space to be managed, the better.

Wood which is cut off is gone for eternity. A bud that the wood grew from is relatively a zero loss if removed as soon as it is evident that it will grow wrong or is in the wrong place. A bud grows in the direction it is pointed. New buds will be encouraged to grow elsewhere just by the removal of buds. There is good movement and there is bad movement. Just because there’s a kink in the branch or trunk because of a chop or removal of some part of the tree doesn’t mean that the resulting movement will be attractive or beneficial to a design. Two branches growing from the same height on the trunk is never good short term or long term. Look at the two largest branches on this tree. Does it take two years to see that they should never be at the same height and growing in the same direction? It doesn’t take a genius to spot ungainly or ugly movement. If one of them had been removed the day two side-by side bud were spotted there may have been a replacement bud emerge in a good place. That option was foregone by the watching part of grow & watch.

Failure to make a plan, -a stick figure drawing, no matter however crude or rudimentary, is like driving to a destination without knowing where it is and without a map or address. You can’t get there if you don’t have a good idea of where you want to go.

I don’t like to be the bad guy, but the teachers here have skipped right over this lesson and the student who came here for good advice just got a pat on the ass as the teachers left to skip school. Everyone gets an F for this last two years. Time to move on, rightly.
 

_#1_

Omono
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This thread is good illustration of what’s wrong with chop & grow. First, it needs to be renamed for what it really is: chop & watch. That’s it, just chop & watch. Maybe, if it grows exactly how someone wants it to grow everything will be alright. That never, ever happens. It needs to be upgraded to chop & control growth with wire and watchful bud pruning. Just chop & watch branches jut out at funny angles from wherever a bud emerges leads to these kinds of non-plans 23 months later to do it all over again. There is no point in letting something grow on a tree in “training” without actually “training” it to go here or do this or that. If it’s a sacrifice branch it doesn’t have to be wired, but if it is not specifically a sacrifice branch it has no business on the tree except to be regulated by the person in-charge of designing the tree. The sooner the position of a bud or emerging stem is critiqued and either eliminated or assigned a potential goal position in space to be managed, the better.

Wood which is cut off is gone for eternity. A bud that the wood grew from is relatively a zero loss if removed as soon as it is evident that it will grow wrong or is in the wrong place. A bud grows in the direction it is pointed. New buds will be encouraged to grow elsewhere just by the removal of buds. There is good movement and there is bad movement. Just because there’s a kink in the branch or trunk because of a chop or removal of some part of the tree doesn’t mean that the resulting movement will be attractive or beneficial to a design. Two branches growing from the same height on the trunk is never good short term or long term. Look at the two largest branches on this tree. Does it take two years to see that they should never be at the same height and growing in the same direction? It doesn’t take a genius to spot ungainly or ugly movement. If one of them had been removed the day two side-by side bud were spotted there may have been a replacement bud emerge in a good place. That option was foregone by the watching part of grow & watch.

Failure to make a plan, -a stick figure drawing, no matter however crude or rudimentary, is like driving to a destination without knowing where it is and without a map or address. You can’t get there if you don’t have a good idea of where you want to go.

I don’t like to be the bad guy, but the teachers here have skipped right over this lesson and the student who came here for good advice just got a pat on the ass as the teachers left to skip school. Everyone gets an F for this last two years. Time to move on, rightly.
Someone been blowing smoke out their butt hole again 🙃😉
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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i think the first image is your better option.

1613311804212-png.354492
 

Forsoothe!

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The good thing is that now you are here to comment and provide some guideliness. Looking forward to reading your advises on my next steps with this one :)
Are you saying that you cannot extrapolate instructions from what I wrote? It states, I thought pretty clearly, exactly what is absent from so-called chop & grow, and, what should replace it. If you didn't like the tone then you still don't understand why I don't respect the suggestion by some people to "chop & grow". To wit: They rarely say what to do after you chop, other than to grow it for some time period. What you do after the chop is the most important part of suggestion, and almost always absent or lacking. I can be more specific if you are still in the dark. Nothing ever grows into a bonsai form by itself, you have to force it. Everything always responds to severe chopping by either growing very slow and dying or growing very fast in an uneconomical, unbonsai-like form that has to be short-cut by the owner or else it will turn into something that is even more difficult to turn into a bonsai form a couple years down the road.

My style of writing almost always follows the same format of saying what I don't like and why, and a better way to do something and why. I do not feel any obligation to pusy-foot around with saying what I don't like and why it's not as good as another method. Try to remember that nobody here has created any of these processes. Read that line again. Everything here in this and ever other forum is just repeating methods created by the Japanese and Chinese, et al a long time ago and we here are just picking sides. I give my side and others are perfectly free to give the side they choose and explain why I'm wrong and they're right. I couldn't stop them even if I cared. Take it, or leave it.
 
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