Eugenes hackberry experiment and progression

eugenev2

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Discovered these hackberry seedlings growing in pots and in the ground and decided to try and experiment.
The experiment was to compare 2 soil mixes vs ground growing as control
 

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eugenev2

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Experiments where repotted and grew fairly quickly. The two soil mixes that i'm comparing is a 70% perlite and 30% peat compost vs 20% compost 10 % pine bark 33% pumice 33% lava rock vs ground growing

To attempt to make it as scientific as possible i divided the seedlings into 1 strongest growing and 2 week growing into each of the mixes
 

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eugenev2

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From my little experiment (i realise sample size is not big enough to make actual conclusions) i found some interesting take aways.
Firstly soil mix can possibly make a big difference
Two genetically stronger plant will always out pace in the same substrate.
Three, ground growing is not always the answer, heresy i know, but in this experiment of mine i decided to "forget" about the tree in the ground, so it didn't get fertilized and watered as the others. It also had less than ideal sunlight.
My strongest plant is the more optimal substrate out paced the ground tree by a fair margin as can be seen by the picture with the bunny, it grew to about 3 times the thickness and about 4 times the height.
My conclusion only ground grow a tree if you can provide the proper conditions else you are better off with a pot or growbox
 

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BobbyLane

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hackberry is an exceptional species for bonsai, grows extremely fast, up there with elms n zelkova and produce ultra fine twigging.
fwiw any tree planted in open ground doesnt really take off until the 2nd and 3rd year, the 1st year is often called the 'creeper' year in which they busy themselves with getting established. watering, feed and sunlight helps them establish much quicker. i use chicken pellets and water often for first 2-3 weeks
 

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BobbyLane

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Frojo guy has some good progressions on field grown hackberry, this is one of quite a few
 

eugenev2

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hackberry is an exceptional species for bonsai, grows extremely fast, up there with elms n zelkova and produce ultra fine twigging.
fwiw any tree planted in open ground doesnt really take off until the 2nd and 3rd year, the 1st year is often called the 'creeper' year in which they busy themselves with getting established. watering, feed and sunlight helps them establish much quicker. i use chicken pellets and water often for first 2-3 weeks
I'll keep that in mind, won't be taking it out of the ground anytime soon, so i can experiment a little further, but it is interesting to see that almost all of my potted trees, one or two exception that have had a rough time, have far exceeded the ground growing tree. I would have expected similar results to the very least of my weakest well growing tree (although i was expecting better results than my best truthfully)

But yea, i use a similar type of product, its called atlantic bio ocean, which is basically chicken pellets enhanced with some seaweed, kelp and one or two other "organic" things. The tree in the ground received this as well, but it's scheduled was a bit different...it got fed when the roses got fed :)
 

eugenev2

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Frojo guy has some good progressions on field grown hackberry, this is one of quite a few
Thanks for the share, i'll use this for a reference for more hackberry info in the future. Officially i cannot really ground grow anything at the moment, as i live in a apartment with a very small garden, limited space, as well as cannot grow anything that might have a invasive root system. But hoping to move in the next year or 2, so hopefully proper ground growing will be possible
 

rockm

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I'll keep that in mind, won't be taking it out of the ground anytime soon, so i can experiment a little further, but it is interesting to see that almost all of my potted trees, one or two exception that have had a rough time, have far exceeded the ground growing tree. I would have expected similar results to the very least of my weakest well growing tree (although i was expecting better results than my best truthfully)

But yea, i use a similar type of product, its called atlantic bio ocean, which is basically chicken pellets enhanced with some seaweed, kelp and one or two other "organic" things. The tree in the ground received this as well, but it's scheduled was a bit different...it got fed when the roses got fed :)
The reason you are seeing quicker growth in a containerized plant is because--unless you have had the seedlings in-ground for more than three years--is that the plants in pots can more quickly colonize the soil available with roots. The plants in the ground will take longer to do that given the unlimited room their roots have--the ground also has unlimited drainage capability-which means substantially less of the additives you're providing are actually making it into the plant (the containerized plant gets focused amounts of those additives.)

The old saying goes for seedlings in the ground--"sleep, creep, leap"-- means the first two to three years the tree grows relatively slowly, while establishing roots and can better take advantage of the conditions. The third to fifth year, growth expands tremendously. What is likely to happen is the containerized plants will slow as roots are restricted by being packed into a container (which is the key to bonsai cultivation), while the in-ground plants will begin to push very strong almost exponential growth.

That is why ground growing for a trunk isn't productive for most any species unless you leave it in place in the ground for three to five years at least.
 

BobbyLane

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The reason you are seeing quicker growth in a containerized plant is because--unless you have had the seedlings in-ground for more than three years--is that the plants in pots can more quickly colonize the soil available with roots. The plants in the ground will take longer to do that given the unlimited room their roots have--the ground also has unlimited drainage capability-which means substantially less of the additives you're providing are actually making it into the plant (the containerized plant gets focused amounts of those additives.)

The old saying goes for seedlings in the ground--"sleep, creep, leap"-- means the first two to three years the tree grows relatively slowly, while establishing roots and can better take advantage of the conditions. The third to fifth year, growth expands tremendously. What is likely to happen is the containerized plants will slow as roots are restricted by being packed into a container (which is the key to bonsai cultivation), while the in-ground plants will begin to push very strong almost exponential growth.

That is why ground growing for a trunk isn't productive for most any species unless you leave it in place in the ground for three to five years at least.
Rockm explaining what I had in my head into a well written scripture😁
I honestly couldnt remember the saying 'sleep, creep, leap'
 

eugenev2

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The reason you are seeing quicker growth in a containerized plant is because--unless you have had the seedlings in-ground for more than three years--is that the plants in pots can more quickly colonize the soil available with roots. The plants in the ground will take longer to do that given the unlimited room their roots have--the ground also has unlimited drainage capability-which means substantially less of the additives you're providing are actually making it into the plant (the containerized plant gets focused amounts of those additives.)

The old saying goes for seedlings in the ground--"sleep, creep, leap"-- means the first two to three years the tree grows relatively slowly, while establishing roots and can better take advantage of the conditions. The third to fifth year, growth expands tremendously. What is likely to happen is the containerized plants will slow as roots are restricted by being packed into a container (which is the key to bonsai cultivation), while the in-ground plants will begin to push very strong almost exponential growth.

That is why ground growing for a trunk isn't productive for most any species unless you leave it in place in the ground for three to five years at least.
5 years is not a test i can try at the moment, but i would definitely like to see it in action. I take it people who dig up the tree every 2 years to check the roots and work them don't get the same sleep, creep, leap growth then?
 

BobbyLane

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5 years is not a test i can try at the moment, but i would definitely like to see it in action. I take it people who dig up the tree every 2 years to check the roots and work them don't get the same sleep, creep, leap growth then?
some just put them on a tiie n leave em. a lot depends on the type of nebari you want and what youre starting with.
there are some who dont mind a thick powerful nebari and others who like it more refined and of course, you want to build a nebari that suits the material.
 

penumbra

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I have noticed this same progression with my pond pots on the ground in mulch. The first couple of years they grew pretty well and ramification was developing. After the third year I got a lot of growth of shoots several feet long, the same as those in the ground. Unfortunately, though I got excellent thickening, I got almost no ramification (unless encouraged by severe pruning). That is not surprising and is to be expected.
 

rockm

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5 years is not a test i can try at the moment, but i would definitely like to see it in action. I take it people who dig up the tree every 2 years to check the roots and work them don't get the same sleep, creep, leap growth then?
That is correct. Undisturbed root growth in the ground is the only way really to get substantial growth in nebari and trunk size. If you're lifting an inground trunk every two years, you're short-circuiting the whole process. Roots should be selected and ordered before the tree is planted in the ground (you can plant over tiles, washers, etc. to spread the nebari out. Nebari development and refinement can continue once the tree is in a training container.
 

BobbyLane

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check out my field grown field maple thread, i didnt touch the roots for about 4 years, which produced a powerful nebari and base
 

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