Ever seen scale growth on a procumbens?

Arnold

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Posting with Bjorn’s permission-

To answer your question:
There is the standard Juniperus procumbens, which grows in the higher elevation mountains of Japan, including in the Japanese Alps. This species tends to produce very hard deadwood and interesting twisted trunklines. The foliage on this species is somewhat coarse and does not (to my knowledge) produce scale-like foliage (although that's not to say it's an impossibility).

What you find more commonly in the US is Juniperus procumbens 'nana' which is the dwarf version of the standard procumbens in Japan. This cultivar has more compact foliage and can potentially produce scale-like foliage given certain environmental conditions. So for example, it is less likely to produce scale-like foliage in the hot humid temps of TN, but much more likely to produce that foliage in the cooler environment of the Bay Area in San Francisco. Older examples of 'nana' also seem more likely to produce scale foliage than younger examples.

With all that said, though, it is unlikely that a procumbens 'nana' will produce 100% scale foliage across the entire tree. More often than not, you'll find a mix of juvenile and scale foliage on any given plant.
👏👏👏 Right on the point
 

Japonicus

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Definition of nana

informal
: the mother of one's father or mother : GRANDMOTHER… my nana's commonsense wisdom still resonates.
She told me it's not important what people say they do, it's what they do that counts.— Ms.

-------------------------------------
.

Origin: African Hawaiian Hebrew Spanish

Sex: Female

Unisex Name? No

Meaning: Mother of the earth (Ghana); lady (Swahili, Kenya-Tanzania).

Soul Urge: People with the name Nana have a deep inner desire for love and companionship, and want to work with others to achieve peace and harmony.

Expression: People with the name Nana tend to be creative and excellent at expressing themselves. They are drawn to the arts, and often enjoy life immensely. They are often the center of attention, and enjoy careers that put them in the limelight. They tend to become involved in many different activities, and are sometimes reckless with both their energies and with money.

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@Adair M please note the African Soul Urge. My apologies for waking this thread, but that video you posted was hilarious.
I know I can always count on you to answer my question when I have such an issue arise and unsure what to do. Thank you.
Anyway nana in our terms I believe dwarf, compact, small...who knew such an insignificant omission from the name
would reap such repercussions? As Bjorn referenced the US as more common, I nearly always omit it from my reference to it.

However I sincerely doubt that had it been referenced more often in this thread, (it is there, few posts contain it) that it would have made any difference.
Very doubtful, since it was not ever asked whether nana was a determining factor in the "argument".
Thanks @amcoffeegirl for reaching out to Bjorn.

At the end of the day...does removing scale that has arisen from stress from foliage reduction
cause more scale? Then let the tree rest and revisit the scale another year?

Does scale have to be removed to revert back to needle, or can scale eventually open into needles, particularly if a portion
of the scale is removed, like a single scale 'leaf'? reduced in length by 2/3. Will the remaining 1/3 eventually open into needle form?
I predict, I will have to experiment to get my answer.
 

Adair M

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Definition of nana

informal
: the mother of one's father or mother : GRANDMOTHER… my nana's commonsense wisdom still resonates.
She told me it's not important what people say they do, it's what they do that counts.— Ms.

-------------------------------------
.

Origin: African Hawaiian Hebrew Spanish

Sex: Female

Unisex Name? No

Meaning: Mother of the earth (Ghana); lady (Swahili, Kenya-Tanzania).

Soul Urge: People with the name Nana have a deep inner desire for love and companionship, and want to work with others to achieve peace and harmony.

Expression: People with the name Nana tend to be creative and excellent at expressing themselves. They are drawn to the arts, and often enjoy life immensely. They are often the center of attention, and enjoy careers that put them in the limelight. They tend to become involved in many different activities, and are sometimes reckless with both their energies and with money.

-------------------------------------
@Adair M please note the African Soul Urge. My apologies for waking this thread, but that video you posted was hilarious.
I know I can always count on you to answer my question when I have such an issue arise and unsure what to do. Thank you.
Anyway nana in our terms I believe dwarf, compact, small...who knew such an insignificant omission from the name
would reap such repercussions? As Bjorn referenced the US as more common, I nearly always omit it from my reference to it.

However I sincerely doubt that had it been referenced more often in this thread, (it is there, few posts contain it) that it would have made any difference.
Very doubtful, since it was not ever asked whether nana was a determining factor in the "argument".
Thanks @amcoffeegirl for reaching out to Bjorn.

At the end of the day...does removing scale that has arisen from stress from foliage reduction
cause more scale? Then let the tree rest and revisit the scale another year?

Does scale have to be removed to revert back to needle, or can scale eventually open into needles, particularly if a portion
of the scale is removed, like a single scale 'leaf'? reduced in length by 2/3. Will the remaining 1/3 eventually open into needle form?
I predict, I will have to experiment to get my answer.
Lol!!! Don’t ask me! I don’t “do” Procumbens!
 

MichaelS

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Posting with Bjorn’s permission-

To answer your question:
There is the standard Juniperus procumbens, which grows in the higher elevation mountains of Japan, including in the Japanese Alps. This species tends to produce very hard deadwood and interesting twisted trunklines. The foliage on this species is somewhat coarse and does not (to my knowledge) produce scale-like foliage (although that's not to say it's an impossibility).

What you find more commonly in the US is Juniperus procumbens 'nana' which is the dwarf version of the standard procumbens in Japan. This cultivar has more compact foliage and can potentially produce scale-like foliage given certain environmental conditions. So for example, it is less likely to produce scale-like foliage in the hot humid temps of TN, but much more likely to produce that foliage in the cooler environment of the Bay Area in San Francisco. Older examples of 'nana' also seem more likely to produce scale foliage than younger examples.

With all that said, though, it is unlikely that a procumbens 'nana' will produce 100% scale foliage across the entire tree. More often than not, you'll find a mix of juvenile and scale foliage on any given plant.
Ha ha ha
Not even wrong. I have exactly the same climate type as the frisco bay area. Bjorn is talking about the same ''nana'' that Adair and others is talking about. 😁
 

MichaelS

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Yeah, no one single scale in those very very old ones

These two in the United States National Bonsai & Penjing Museum:

This beautiful tree no one single scale in any photo I have seen:


But this other with scales mixed with prickly:

Yes the top one is a favorite of mine. Its rather strange how people with perfectly good eyesight can look at these 2 and consider them the same thing. The monty python sketch is perfect... ''Look this one is black and that one is white...see?'' ....''no it isn't''... ''It is!, See? look, I've just shown you'',....''No it isn't, they are the same. I'ts just the light''..
Ha ha ha ha..
 

amcoffeegirl

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Ha ha ha
Not even wrong. I have exactly the same climate type as the frisco bay area. Bjorn is talking about the same ''nana'' that Adair and others is talking about. 😁
Yes he is- so you are still in disagreement with this statement?

I thought perhaps you maybe had the procumbens version while us in the U.S. were referring to ‘nana’
He gave a very detailed and thoughtful answer.
 

Adair M

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Yes he is- so you are still in disagreement with this statement?

I thought perhaps you maybe had the procumbens version while us in the U.S. were referring to ‘nana’
He gave a very detailed and thoughtful answer.
I think that must be the case.

Michael S is using “Procumbens”, and we use “Procumbens Nana”. We just call them “Procumbens”.
 

MichaelS

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Yes he is- so you are still in disagreement with this statement?

I thought perhaps you maybe had the procumbens version while us in the U.S. were referring to ‘nana’
He gave a very detailed and thoughtful answer.
Jezzuz Christ.
Yes I am. I am referring to the NANA form. The NANA form is the same species. It DOES NOT HAVE scale foliage. Bjorn is referring to some other plant entirely. A plant which you and all your friends mistakenly call Juniperus Procumbens Nana

Is DNA analysis enough for you people?................

TAXONOMY OF THE MULTI-SEEDED, ENTIRE LEAF TAXA OF JUNIPERUS, SECTION SABINA: SEQUENCE ANALYSIS OF nrDNA AND FOUR cpDNA REGIONS

Juniperus procumbens differs from J. chinensis by a prostrate habit with only decurrent (juvenile) leaves. Although the taxon is distinct due to these characteristics, the presence of only juvenile leaves (neoteny) and prostate habit may be controlled by only a few genes.
 
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MichaelS

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I think that must be the case.

Michael S is using “Procumbens”, and we use “Procumbens Nana”. We just call them “Procumbens”.
Nana is just a smaller form of procumbens. They are the same species. We mostly grow the Nana form here.
 

coh

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Yes he is- so you are still in disagreement with this statement?

I thought perhaps you maybe had the procumbens version while us in the U.S. were referring to ‘nana’
He gave a very detailed and thoughtful answer.
Told ya!

Let the fun continue.
 

Adair M

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Michael, what will you do when some day one of your Procumbens sprouts a scale tuft?

Because it just might! Would you still deny it?
 

amcoffeegirl

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Well if I had a couple hundred dollars to send in a U.S. nursery pot sample for dna testing- I sure would do that.
I think if it came back as a procumbens species that you still wouldn’t believe it.
I do trust Bjorn’s judgement on this and that he has seen it I can visually verify it to be procumbens.
Todd Schlafer also confirmed seeing it at Plant City.
 

MichaelS

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I think if it came back as a procumbens species that you still wouldn’t believe it.
I'm afraid it is you who is being stubborn. I was growing and selling procumbens junipers when Bjorn was still in junior school. I have given you ample evidence that what you and others big-headedly adhere to is incorrect. You who has no experience or clue on this subject whatsoever, on the other-hand, have offered no proof whatsoever other than a commonly used name attached to a plant so I suggest you look at your own shortcomings before making unfounded accusations. That your unscientific conformation bias based on some misguided personal ''feeling'' towards me is painfully transparent and rather nauseating not to mention infantile.
Having worked in the industry for a long time, I can tell you that miss-labeled plants of all kinds is very common. All evidence presented so far points to this being one such case. The mistake can be perpetuated forever.
 

Adair M

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I'm afraid it is you who is being stubborn. I was growing and selling procumbens junipers when Bjorn was still in junior school. I have given you ample evidence that what you and others big-headedly adhere to is incorrect. You who has no experience or clue on this subject whatsoever, on the other-hand, have offered no proof whatsoever other than a commonly used name attached to a plant so I suggest you look at your own shortcomings before making unfounded accusations. That your unscientific conformation bias based on some misguided personal ''feeling'' towards me is painfully transparent and rather nauseating not to mention infantile.
Having worked in the industry for a long time, I can tell you that miss-labeled plants of all kinds is very common. All evidence presented so far points to this being one such case. The mistake can be perpetuated forever.
Well, if the plants are mislabeled, they are mislabeled all over the country. I live in the Southeast, and there are Procumbens with scale in California, on the complete other side of the country. And everywhere in
between.

Mislabeling is a thing, however. Back in the day, I ordered some “zelkova serrata” from a large commercial nursery. They sent me Chinese Elms. The tags on the trees all said Zelkova. Go figure.
 

leatherback

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Mislabeling is a thing, however. Back in the day, I ordered some “zelkova serrata” from a large commercial nursery. They sent me Chinese Elms. The tags on the trees all said Zelkova. Go figure.
guess what. In most of europe this still is the case. Yu will not believe the flame wars this causes when you enlighten someone.
 
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