Ever seen scale growth on a procumbens?

YukiShiro

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Jezzuz Christ.
Yes I am. I am referring to the NANA form. The NANA form is the same species. It DOES NOT HAVE scale foliage. Bjorn is referring to some other plant entirely. A plant which you and all your friends mistakenly call Juniperus Procumbens Nana

Is DNA analysis enough for you people?................

TAXONOMY OF THE MULTI-SEEDED, ENTIRE LEAF TAXA OF JUNIPERUS, SECTION SABINA: SEQUENCE ANALYSIS OF nrDNA AND FOUR cpDNA REGIONS

Juniperus procumbens differs from J. chinensis by a prostrate habit with only decurrent (juvenile) leaves. Although the taxon is distinct due to these characteristics, the presence of only juvenile leaves (neoteny) and prostate habit may be controlled by only a few genes.
Dude seriously, Bjorn stated the dwarf form of precumbens can have scale foliage. Why do you keep arguing the point.... is "nana" not one of many ways to denote a dwarf form of a species? the exact form Bjorn refers to when saying it can have scale foliage?

and why is this so VERY VERY important for you to be correct in this argument? its a plant dude, relax...if it wants to grow scale it's going to, and a name change either way is not going to influence how any of these plants is worked for bonsai now is it? Is it worth antagonizing yourself on this forum? throwing insults now it seems, even though they are disguised. It's not such a bad thing to be wrong sometimes you know...

just relax breath and let it GO
herman
 

MichaelS

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Well, if the plants are mislabeled, they are mislabeled all over the country. I live in the Southeast, and there are Procumbens with scale in California, on the complete other side of the country. And everywhere in
between.
That's correct. Typically there are a few propagating nurseries that take cuttings by the thousand, label the plants (or usually one of them in a tray) and then distribute them everywhere as tube stock to other nurseries which grow them on and sell them to the retailers. It just takes one mistake at the start and away you go. Usually, no one questions the name. Especially with conifers that have no flower to identify them easily. Even more especially the cypress family. They just order the labels and tie them on.
A sequence.....''Where is the label for these junipers?''......''I don't know, it must have fallen off.. They were left over from last year'' ..... ''So what do I put on them?''..... ''Here .. use these''
Believe me, that happens in a nursery somewhere every day. With J horizontalis cultivars it's almost a given that they are wrongly named.

There are also quite a few cultivars of J chinensis with both adult and juvenile foliage. I've seen at least 5 different ones myself. In fact I was given one that was supposed to be a ''needle'' juniper that now is half scale. I have no idea what it is.
 

MichaelS

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"YukiShiro, post: 787275, member: 13919"]
Dude seriously, Bjorn stated the dwarf form of precumbens can have scale foliage
.

Dude neither you nor Bjorn know what you are talking about.

Why do you keep arguing the point.... is "nana" not one of many ways to denote a dwarf form of a species? the exact form Bjorn refers to when saying it can have scale foliage?
I have already addressed this very issue. So maybe dude, before commenting with such conviction. You should read first?

and why is this so VERY VERY important for you to be correct in this argument?
See I don't get it. Why don't you ask the others the same question? It takes two to argue but somehow I am to blame.

It's not important. It's entertainment while it's raining and I can't do my repotting.

its a plant dude, relax...if it wants to grow scale it's going to, and a name change either way is not going to influence how any of these plants is worked for bonsai now is it?
Sure it is. Someone might look at a beautiful example of a Japanese procumbens bonsai, decide he or she wants one, spends years working on it only to find it's the half half monstrosity juniper.

Is it worth antagonizing yourself on this forum? throwing insults now it seems, even though they are disguised.
Antagonizing myself? How does that work? Those insults were not disguised. I thought they were pretty clear. Iv'e been called everything under the sun for simply bringing this up. Not that I give a shit. But my bullshitometer is redlining just reading your post. You wrong on just about every point. Congrats dude!

[/QUOTE]
 

leatherback

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It's entertainment while it's raining
Wait. Stop. You have rain? In Australia?
Lucky You!

Just kidding of course. I do not know where in Oz you are and that will deeply affect your love for the rain :)
just having some
entertainment
We did a bit of a roadtrip (Melbourne - Darwin) a few years back, and in the week we were around Alice we had some big storms. Gave us some great photo ops!

1600244900201.png
 

YukiShiro

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Jezzuz Christ.
Yes I am. I am referring to the NANA form. The NANA form is the same species. It DOES NOT HAVE scale foliage. Bjorn is referring to some other plant entirely. A plant which you and all your friends mistakenly call Juniperus Procumbens Nana

Dude neither you nor Bjorn know what you are talking about.
Posting with Bjorn’s permission-

To answer your question:
There is the standard Juniperus procumbens, which grows in the higher elevation mountains of Japan, including in the Japanese Alps. This species tends to produce very hard deadwood and interesting twisted trunklines. The foliage on this species is somewhat coarse and does not (to my knowledge) produce scale-like foliage (although that's not to say it's an impossibility).

What you find more commonly in the US is Juniperus procumbens 'nana' which is the dwarf version of the standard procumbens in Japan. This cultivar has more compact foliage and can potentially produce scale-like foliage given certain environmental conditions. So for example, it is less likely to produce scale-like foliage in the hot humid temps of TN, but much more likely to produce that foliage in the cooler environment of the Bay Area in San Francisco. Older examples of 'nana' also seem more likely to produce scale foliage than younger examples.

With all that said, though, it is unlikely that a procumbens 'nana' will produce 100% scale foliage across the entire tree. More often than not, you'll find a mix of juvenile and scale foliage on any given plant.
rather doubt Bjorn would not know...lol
and I rather doubt that this argument is not important to you...

lol, If someone works on a plant for "years" and it looks like a monstrosity to them, they should consider taking some classes, the plant is almost never to blame for the style imposed on it...

have fun...
 

Sno

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Wait. Stop. You have rain? In Australia?
Lucky You!

Just kidding of course. I do not know where in Oz you are and that will deeply affect your love for the rain :)
just having some


We did a bit of a roadtrip (Melbourne - Darwin) a few years back, and in the week we were around Alice we had some big storms. Gave us some great photo ops!

View attachment 329389
There’s no flies on you mate .
 

amcoffeegirl

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I'm afraid it is you who is being stubborn. I was growing and selling procumbens junipers when Bjorn was still in junior school. I have given you ample evidence that what you and others big-headedly adhere to is incorrect. You who has no experience or clue on this subject whatsoever, on the other-hand, have offered no proof whatsoever other than a commonly used name attached to a plant so I suggest you look at your own shortcomings before making unfounded accusations. That your unscientific conformation bias based on some misguided personal ''feeling'' towards me is painfully transparent and rather nauseating not to mention infantile.
Having worked in the industry for a long time, I can tell you that miss-labeled plants of all kinds is very common. All evidence presented so far points to this being one such case. The mistake can be perpetuated forever.
Sounds like your beef is with Bjorn now and not with me.
I have no feelings toward you to be honest.
To personally attack me is just your style though.
 
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Man what a ride this thread is! I've read everyone's responses and I've come to one of two conclusions:

1) The plant in the OP is a Juniper Procumbens "Nana" and that the "Nana" form can grow scale foliage if it's sufficiently old and root bound - a possibility for OP picture as I slid it into that Terra Cotta with no root work back in the first month I did bonsai.

2) This is not a Procumbens juniper at all but a mislabeled clone, different subtype, etc. @MichaelS - your belief is that I have a juniper that's not really a Procumbens or anything else - just a weird possibly hybrid juniper that's going to sport ugly foliage when it's in the mood?

Regardless, the OP tree will never be a show tree, though it has gone a long way to teaching me growth habits and has been great wiring practice these last few years.

Also - great discussion here guys. I know things get a bit heated but I've assimilated quite a bit of information off this whole thread!
 

MichaelS

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Sounds like your beef is with Bjorn now and not with me.
Wrong again. My beef is not with Bjorn. He is just going by what he has experienced with this plant without further information. You on the other hand have been and are being recalcitrant.


I have no feelings toward you to be honest.


Oh what short memories we have!

You are wrong though.
You have full access to to internet- same as me.
I cannot believe you won't do some legwork and look it up. You sir are stubborn.
Are you a redhead? A Virgo? A Taurus maybe?
''Leg work'' Ha ha ha.. Oh god, that's a good one.... Yes astrology! That must be it. Ha ha ha ha
 

amcoffeegirl

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Wrong again. My beef is not with Bjorn. He is just going by what he has experienced with this plant without further information. You on the other hand have been and are being recalcitrant.






Oh what short memories we have!



''Leg work'' Ha ha ha.. Oh god, that's a good one.... Yes astrology! That must be it. Ha ha ha ha
Well I see you haven’t changed since that time frame but I have! Good night
 

MichaelS

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There is a good look at a real procumbens nana here. It's about 40 or so years old now.
 
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