Ever seen scale growth on a procumbens?

[Cable]

It's threads like this, and then we wonder why the whole world thinks bonsai folks are f***ing crazy.

I told my trees you said that and they all laughed.

 

[MichaelS]

I submitted my evidence to a reputable body and received peer review

Can we see it???

 

[LeonardB]

Here are pictures taken at Plant City’s famous “Sea of Junipers”:

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And some close ups:

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A rough guess says that about half of them have fully gone scale, about a third have both types of foliage, and the rest are straight juvenile.

Adair, I have seen these same specimens and wonder if the scale I observed as well was an age thing. The die back on some of these trees is so extreme and internal budding was not observed. What I am asking is that these trees don't live forever, are they displaying the final stages of spiraling down in health?

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

It's threads like this, and then we wonder why the whole world thinks bonsai folks are f***ing crazy.

At this point, I think they are all just having fun arguing.

 

[Dav4]

Adair, I have seen these same specimens and wonder if the scale I observed as well was an age thing. The die back on some of these trees is so extreme and internal budding was not observed. What I am asking is that these trees don't live forever, are they displaying the final stages of spiraling down in health?

Nah, as a rule, junipers produce juvenile foliage in a time of stress while the opposite is true for scale foliage. Scale foliage on a juniper is not a sign of declining health.

 

[Adair M]

Adair, I have seen these same specimens and wonder if the scale I observed as well was an age thing. The die back on some of these trees is so extreme and internal budding was not observed. What I am asking is that these trees don't live forever, are they displaying the final stages of spiraling down in health?

The die back you see with these is the internal foliage that’s been shaded out.

Or since these have been crowded together in the field, parts of one will shade out it’s neighbor.

Some of these trees have been out there for 20 years!!! Or more!!

 

[M. Frary]

Since I have him o ignore I imagine you guys are handing the climate change denier his ass with pictures and irrefutable evidence.
And he isn't having none of it.
Put him on ignore.
Not only does MichaelS know nothing about climate but me thinks he doesn't really know about bonsai.
He's just a troll looking for attention.
He comes here around this time every year with the same spiel.
Nothing new.
No bonsai.
Just his own queer little brand of ignorance.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

Juniperus procumbens its in the section sabina related to juniperus chinensis and most of scale junipers so its not very crazy that some specimens have some scales even in the nana cultivar suposed to only have juvenile growth

 

[TN_Jim]

Juniperus procumbens its in the section sabina related to juniperus chinensis and most of scale junipers so its not very crazy that some specimens have some scales even in the nana cultivar suposed to only have juvenile growth

Post #104

Thank you. Why is it crazy that ANY juniper could have scale foliage?...especially nurtured in a container?

Crazy would be if I let an ERC be root bound in a pot after 20 + yrs.

Kettle with cones or such on the stove puts some humidity back into the air. We’ve been doing so, also soup and stock.

Realized again too that when you start up the heater, all plants inside become a bit quicker in need of water..

 

[Crazy Diamond]

"The leaves are arranged in decussate whorls of three. The leaves are mostly of juvenile form, growing needle-like, individually measuring 0.24 to 0.32 inch (6 – 8 mm) long and 0.04 to 0.06 inch (1 - 1.5 mm) broad, with two white stomatal bands on the inner face. Occasionally one will find adult (scaled foliage), particularly on potted specimens." Conifer society, Juniperus procumbens

 

[Mame-Mo]

"The leaves are arranged in decussate whorls of three. The leaves are mostly of juvenile form, growing needle-like, individually measuring 0.24 to 0.32 inch (6 – 8 mm) long and 0.04 to 0.06 inch (1 - 1.5 mm) broad, with two white stomatal bands on the inner face. Occasionally one will find adult (scaled foliage), particularly on potted specimens." Conifer society, Juniperus procumbens

I don't know if you saw earlier in the thread, but someone here contacted that site to change the definition. To be clear I am firmly in the "procumbens throw scale foliage" camp as some of mine have mature foliage, but I do wonder if there is some credence to the theory that we are dealing with different cultivars. I saw a video on a different thread where someone is working on a Sonare, which to my understanding is what the Japanese call Procumbens. To me the foliage on the tree in the video looked quite different than my procumbens:

It appears more stringy and delicate.

 

[Adair M]

I don't know if you saw earlier in the thread, but someone here contacted that site to change the definition. To be clear I am firmly in the "procumbens throw scale foliage" camp as some of mine have mature foliage, but I do wonder if there is some credence to the theory that we are dealing with different cultivars. I saw a video on a different thread where someone is working on a Sonare, which to my understanding is what the Japanese call Procumbens. To me the foliage on the tree in the video looked quite different than my procumbens:

It appears more stringy and delicate.

That’s a really good video on how to prune and style junipers.

 

[Thomas J.]

Only thing I guess you can say for sure is that some do and some don't. At my place they all do, not that I have very many but the few I do have, have all turned scale foliage and not after a number of long years, not from being dried out or over watered, and not from being pot bound as I repot my trees every year if they need it. The trees below I have had in my collection since 2002 and went scale after only a few yrs and stayed that way ever since. yes they are procumbens and no they weren't mislabeled. I guess there will be believers and there will be non believers and nothing will convince the latter no matter what. :-(

 

[Mame-Mo]

Only thing I guess you can say for sure is that some do and some don't. At my place they all do, not that I have very many but the few I do have, have all turned scale foliage and not after a number of long years, not from being dried out or over watered, and not from being pot bound as I repot my trees every year if they need it. The trees below I have had in my collection since 2002 and went scale after only a few yrs and stayed that way ever since. yes they are procumbens and no they weren't mislabeled. I guess there will be believers and there will be non believers and nothing will convince the latter no matter what. :-(View attachment 273309

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If only there was a technique to make them go to scale reliably That would be a game changer for me.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

You probably call me crazy but I actually like the needle foliage junipers like procumbens or communis, I know many people dont like needle junipers, so if I buy a sonare I will try to get one that not make any scale foliage

 

[M. Frary]

You probably call me crazy but I actually like the needle foliage junipers like procumbens or communis, I know many people dont like needle junipers, so if I buy a sonare I will try to get one that not make any scale foliage

I like the needle foliage too.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

In this japanese page they talk about the sonare and they say: "Coniferous and scale leaves are mixed" Juniperus procumbens, japanese page

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Most if not all junipers eventually have scale foliage. This photo is my nephew next to an ancient J. virginiana. Hard to see in this photo, but foliage is all scale foliage. This cliff dweller is thought to be around 800 years old.

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[leatherback]

Most if not all junipers eventually have scale foliage.

Squamata?
Communis?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Foliage changes with age of the tree. In J. virginiana you do not commonly see scale foliage until the tree is near or over 100 years old. The reason I said most, is that it is not as absolute as ALL. I suspect if you were to find 200 or older examples of squamata or communis, you would find some with scale foliage. It seems to be "baked into the DNA" of the whole juniper family. But like I said, most. I could be wrong about those two species, but I have not seen geriatric examples of either species.

for practical purposes plan on J. communis & J squamata to be "forever" needle foliage. But if you get to see ancient specimens in the wild, like the juniper on the cliff above, do not be shocked if it had converted to scale foliage.