Evolution of a $1.96 Mugo Pine Contest entry

[Brian Van Fleet]

So, to summarize the seasonal work you showed:
1. In late May you trim away downward-facing needles (any reason to do it now vs. fall?)
2. Remove buds appearing in the "crotches" of branches

Correct? The continued rant against the perceived victimization of mugo pines really diluted and distracted from your explanation of the work, and frankly, even you mentioned that criticism has eased up. I'd appreciate hearing more about the what and why of your work and less about the why not. Nevertheless, I do appreciate the time it took to do a video.

 

[Vance Wood]

It has been repotted three maybe four times. I went through my photos this morning and I was wrong. This tree went into one of my training planters in 2005, so it has been in training for ten years. I also took another shot of it last evening which I will include here. As far as how old the tree looks: That is one of the things I love about Mugo Pines. Being the kind of tree it is they lend themselves to the kind of shapes I prefer to put them into and then they look accepting as they start to bark up. Granted a Mugo does not have the bark of a JBP or a Ponderosa Pine but there are a lot of trade offs.

So, to summarize the seasonal work you showed:
1. In late May you trim away downward-facing needles (any reason to do it now vs. fall?)
2. Remove buds appearing in the "crotches" of branches

Correct? The continued rant against the perceived victimization of mugo pines really diluted and distracted from your explanation of the work, and frankly, even you mentioned that criticism has eased up. I'd appreciate hearing more about the what and why of your work and less about the why not. Nevertheless, I do appreciate the time it took to do a video.

So, to summarize the seasonal work you showed:
1. In late May you trim away downward-facing needles (any reason to do it now vs. fall?)
Because most show and opportunities to desplay trees seem to be in June and after. If I remove the needles now, as I cut them off, the fasicles will have dried out and easily rubbed off leaving no evidence of being cut.
2. Remove buds appearing in the "crotches" of branches
I remove the buds appearing in the cortches for the same reasons you do that on most Junipers. Unless they occupy a position where you might be able to utilize them as a cut back point or an addition to the foliage mass they tend to distract from the cleanness of the image.

Correct? The continued rant against the perceived victimization of mugo pines really diluted and distracted from your explanation of the work, and frankly, even you mentioned that criticism has eased up. I'd appreciate hearing more about the what and why of your work and less about the why not. Nevertheless, I do appreciate the time it took to do a video.

True the diatribe against Mugos has abated but you know that there are many who, for what ever reason, say Mugo cannot be grown as bonsai from climate to just flat out being an enferior tree. Many of the people trying them today had in the past been influenced by this misinformation. It would seem what I have been doing over the years is starting to bear fruit and yes I may have been as strident in my defense of the tree as those who opposed it.

Thank You for you encouraging remarks.

 

[Joedes3]

How did you get the needles so short?
Joedes

 

[Vance Wood]

The way the tree is treated in July with the removal of the new shoots plays a good part in the process. Keeping them confined in a pot does the rest. Mugos produce really short and compact needles naturally if you get them pointed in the right directions. So do Scots Pines.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

True the diatribe against Mugos has abated but you know that there are many who, for what ever reason, say Mugo cannot be grown as bonsai from climate to just flat out being an enferior tree.

Actually, I only hear you saying that people say it's an inferior tree, but I'm not out there beating the drum either.

However, it is a fact that mugo, like any species, has a climatic range, outside which it will not survive long. I have tried several here; decent ones too, and they have not made it. This one was from northern CA in 2006, one of my graveyard favorites. It didn't make it 6 months. I'd give it another shot if I stumbled across a decent one, but they're not common in our area nurseries, and I'm not likely to spend much on a fourth experiment.

 

[Vance Wood]

I don't blame you

 

[Vance Wood]

Actually, I only hear you saying that people say it's an inferior tree, but I'm not out there beating the drum either.

However, it is a fact that mugo, like any species, has a climatic range, outside which it will not survive long. I have tried several here; decent ones too, and they have not made it. This one was from northern CA in 2006, one of my graveyard favorites. It didn't make it 6 months. I'd give it another shot if I stumbled across a decent one, but they're not common in our area nurseries, and I'm not likely to spend much on a fourth experiment.

When did you repot them and how soon after repotting did you lose them? ----Or not at all. How much did you water them? Really Brian I am not trying to make you like the tree.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

If I recall, this one was dug and shipped in late summer and the replacement was dug and sent the next spring. They were effectively slip-potted into coarse inorganic soil. No top work at all, needles went gold like a root problem. I concluded they were probably dug too hastily by the grower/seller.

 

[0soyoung]

If I recall, this one was dug and shipped in late summer and the replacement was dug and sent the next spring. They were effectively slip-potted into coarse inorganic soil. No top work at all, needles went gold like a root problem. I concluded they were probably dug too hastily by the grower/seller.

In general mugos are quite common here in zone 8 a/b, so they ought to be okay in Birmingham (7b - right?).

I've lost a couple of mugos and their placement low, in shallow pots is what they had in common. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to matter what sort of abuse I administer to them.
I literally chopped the roots of my my biggest mugo out of rock hard ball&burlap clay and it did just fine in a deep pot of Turface. I've been similarly careless to careful in my treatments of my other mugos and they have (and are) doing fine, potted high in relatively deep pots. Furthermore, my second mugo was kept for years in a pot filled 4 or 5 inches deep with pure Turface MVP. It did well, but I never found roots more than an inch down from the surface.

 

[Vance Wood]

What was your watering regimine like? In short how often do you water?

 

[Chad D]

I've had 3 die. Long term club members here in OKC (zone 7) can't keep them alive through our heat either. They will at least 'survive' in landscapes but not in bonsai pots here either apparently.

 

[0soyoung]

What was your watering regimine like? In short how often do you water?

Once a day.

I've had 3 die. Long term club members here in OKC (zone 7) can't keep them alive through our heat either. They will at least 'survive' in landscapes but not in bonsai pots here either apparently.

Hot roots? That is what 'survives in landscapes' suggests to me.
All temperate tree roots stop growing at 95F (plus/minus a degree or two). At higher temperatures roots begin to die. It varies a lot by specie, but by 110F virtually the roots of every species die. Since pines are usually kept in full sun, pots could get quite a bit hotter than ambient.

 

[Vance Wood]

We have temperatures in 3 digits here all of the time. Temperatures in the 90's over weeks at a time are not uncommon. However just because a tree likes full sun does not mean it cannot be moved into a bit of shade, that what gave you a brain to reason with. However I don't put mine in any kind of shelter during those heat waves, I transplant them, root prune them, wire them and style them during this heat.

I suspect that many of you are not watering them often enough. I have found that they need to be watered in the Morning and in the Evening during the 90* weather; sometimes three times a day. I have said it over and over that Mugos like a lot of water but don't like sitting with wet feet. This means that good drainage is a necessity. I dug a tree out of the growers field when the temperature was 112 in August, and the tree survived. How hot do you think my pots get? The laws of physics are the same here in Michigan as they are in WA, in fact I suspect the WA has much better weather than Mi.

Not meaning to be too picky you mentioned a couple of facts: Roots die when temperatures exceed 100 degrees. What is the source of this belief/statement. I have not found this to be true and as I pointed out I am no stranger to 100+ temperatures with no problems. Here again I don't wish to be judgemental but I suspect you are doing what a lot of people do. They have grown Mugos or attempted to grow Mugos and failed. Because they know how to grow bonsai they assume that it can't possible be anything that they have done wrong therefore it must the conditions of the environment that has caused the failure not a cultivational error.

One last comparison: Michigan gets hotter than the atics in Hell and colder than the basement of the Polar express.

 

[Paradox]

I've had 3 die. Long term club members here in OKC (zone 7) can't keep them alive through our heat either. They will at least 'survive' in landscapes but not in bonsai pots here either apparently.

I am in zone 7 and I have kept one alive for 4 years, another for 3 years, another for 2 years and one for one year. All in pots on my deck. My deck thermometer where they have been kept has read up to 120 degrees in the summer.

 

[Vance Wood]

If you provide the water for the trees the temperature will not harm them. That's pretty d@^M hot.

 

[0soyoung]

Roots die when temperatures exceed 100 degrees. What is the source of this belief/statement

The Warnell School of Forestry. The number was 110F (but maybe I err and it is 115F):

but by 110F virtually the roots of every species die

I have said it over and over that Mugos like a lot of water but don't like sitting with wet feet. This means that good drainage is a necessity.

That is consistent with my experience. Though it lacks any scientific rigor, what I tried to relate was my perspective on what 'wet feet' means. There is always a layer of saturated medium at the bottom of a pot, even one that is nothing but mesh. Mugo roots do not seem to grow into that region and they seem to suffocate quite easily when potted deeply or, equivalently in a shallow pot. We all know that this is generally true for conifers as opposed to angiosperms, but mugo seems to be more sensitive that other pine species I've grown:

I've lost a couple of mugos and their placement low, in shallow pots is what they had in common. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to matter what sort of abuse I administer to them.
I literally chopped the roots of my my biggest mugo out of rock hard ball&burlap clay and it did just fine in a deep pot of Turface. I've been similarly careless to careful in my treatments of my other mugos and they have (and are) doing fine, potted high in relatively deep pots. Furthermore, my second mugo was kept for years in a pot filled 4 or 5 inches deep with pure Turface MVP. It did well, but I never found roots more than an inch down from the surface.

How hot do you think my pots get?

I actually have no idea, but it is easy enough to know if you stick a meat thermometer probe in the pot.

My deck thermometer where they have been kept has read up to 120 degrees in the summer.

So, Paradox, you understand how the temperature of the roots in a pot can be above the ambient air temperature.

I suspect you are doing what a lot of people do. They have grown Mugos or attempted to grow Mugos and failed. Because they know how to grow bonsai they assume that it can't possible be anything that they have done wrong therefore it must the conditions of the environment that has caused the failure not a cultivational error.

Well, yes ....

• BVF is the case in point. He is a VERY SUCCESSFUL bonsai enthusiast, yet he's had trouble with mugos. I was trying to offer some anecdotal evidence from my experience that might be a clue to the cultivational error.

I grow in pure Turface MVP. I think one needs to use larger grain media if they want to use shallow pots - do you have a specific recommendation for BVF, Vance?
​

• ChadD and others in OK have trouble growing mugos in pots. I've offered a possible explanation, based on science from the Warnell School of Forestry.

You say you know better - so what might be ChadD's and other Oklahoman's cultivational error?​

The laws of physics are the same here in Michigan as they are in WA, in fact I suspect the WA has much better weather than Mi.

Yes indeed. The Dirac equation and the fine line constant are the same here as in MI as at the edge of the observable universe. Here, where I live, the weather is very mild, the forests are beautiful as is the view of the sea. Every day is just another damn day in paradise. I am in a milder climate than any of you'se guys and mugos thrive. Yet it seems that I can easily kill them by putting their roots in or at the margins of the saturation zone of the growing medium.

 

[Paradox]

So, Paradox, you understand how the temperature of the roots in a pot can be above the ambient air temperature.

Can be, maybe. Was it? Not sure but the soil usually feels cooler when I stick my fingers in there to check water.
I do understand is that my mugos have lived through it just fine.

 

[M. Frary]

They kick ass in the 85 degree weather we get in summer here.

 

[Vance Wood]

In general mugos are quite common here in zone 8 a/b, so they ought to be okay in Birmingham (7b - right?).

I've lost a couple of mugos and their placement low, in shallow pots is what they had in common. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to matter what sort of abuse I administer to them.
I literally chopped the roots of my my biggest mugo out of rock hard ball&burlap clay and it did just fine in a deep pot of Turface. I've been similarly careless to careful in my treatments of my other mugos and they have (and are) doing fine, potted high in relatively deep pots. Furthermore, my second mugo was kept for years in a pot filled 4 or 5 inches deep with pure Turface MVP. It did well, but I never found roots more than an inch down from the surface.

For what it's worth, after going through this thread again and reading your post, Mugos are notorious as being shallow rooted naturally. How often do you water?

 

[Vance Wood]

The Warnell School of Forestry. The number was 110F (but maybe I err and it is 115F):




That is consistent with my experience. Though it lacks any scientific rigor, what I tried to relate was my perspective on what 'wet feet' means. There is always a layer of saturated medium at the bottom of a pot, even one that is nothing but mesh. Mugo roots do not seem to grow into that region and they seem to suffocate quite easily when potted deeply or, equivalently in a shallow pot. We all know that this is generally true for conifers as opposed to angiosperms, but mugo seems to be more sensitive that other pine species I've grown:




I actually have no idea, but it is easy enough to know if you stick a meat thermometer probe in the pot.



So, Paradox, you understand how the temperature of the roots in a pot can be above the ambient air temperature.



Well, yes ....

• BVF is the case in point. He is a VERY SUCCESSFUL bonsai enthusiast, yet he's had trouble with mugos. I was trying to offer some anecdotal evidence from my experience that might be a clue to the cultivational error.

I grow in pure Turface MVP. I think one needs to use larger grain media if they want to use shallow pots - do you have a specific recommendation for BVF, Vance?
​

• ChadD and others in OK have trouble growing mugos in pots. I've offered a possible explanation, based on science from the Warnell School of Forestry.

You say you know better - so what might be ChadD's and other Oklahoman's cultivational error?​

Yes indeed. The Dirac equation and the fine line constant are the same here as in MI as at the edge of the observable universe. Here, where I live, the weather is very mild, the forests are beautiful as is the view of the sea. Every day is just another damn day in paradise. I am in a milder climate than any of you'se guys and mugos thrive. Yet it seems that I can easily kill them by putting their roots in or at the margins of the saturation zone of the growing medium.

You also asked here if I had a recommendation for Brian concerning Mugos and soil. It is almost like getting Evangelicals to accept Sharia law; to get some people to change their philosophy on soil and it's components. There are two things that I would suggest remembering prior discussion on this issue. I do not have a lot of faith in Akadama, my experience with it and stories I have heard from other sources seem to confirm that it tends to break down. So I would get rid of the Akadama and substitute Pumice or a calcined clay product called soil restorer. It is very high fired clay. Here comes the kicker: I use and swear by Composted Pine Bark Mulch. I know it is very popular to have an organic free soil and a lot of people swear by it. However ----------you want to grow Mugos?

Again you don't want Mugos having wet feet, no conifer does well under those conditions. But' it is critical that the soil they are grown in have such a granular nature that allows the water to drain out quickly which allows you to water more often. I have mentioned it before; Mugos like to have a soil that breathes.