EWP. Yeah I know!!

BuckeyeOne

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So, I killed my rescued hinoki and was a little pissed at myself for the stupid mistakes. So what do you do?
Go shopping for another tree!!

I am aware that EWP do not make good bonsai, but when I saw this "Dwarf Blue Shag", I was surprised at the size and movement with lots of foliage.
It is in a 7 GL nursery pot. Trunk is almost 3"! And a bonus, it has developed 2 pine cones!!

So, a little clean-up and now to contemplate the next moves.

It may remain in a larger pot as a garden accent. Not sure yet.

Repot now or leave 'til spring?
 

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Housguy

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If it is growing well in that pot, leave it and let it grow for a bit. You could do some styling later as well with it in that pot. Nice Tree, good luck!
 

Sansui

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So, I killed my rescued hinoki and was a little pissed at myself for the stupid mistakes. So what do you do?
Go shopping for another tree!!

I am aware that EWP do not make good bonsai, but when I saw this "Dwarf Blue Shag", I was surprised at the size and movement with lots of foliage.
It is in a 7 GL nursery pot. Trunk is almost 3"! And a bonus, it has developed 2 pine cones!!

So, a little clean-up and now to contemplate the next moves.

It may remain in a larger pot as a garden accent. Not sure yet.

Repot now or leave 'til spring?

I think your pine tree has great potential! I would wait until early spring before any serious work. This is an EWP I collected as a sapling about 8 years ago.
EWPs are known to be wild and woolly but I like them.
over the water pine.jpg
 

Japonicus

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Ahh, nice!
Remember with WP as with hinoki, you're going to have to real in the growth
removing outer growth. Well fed, you'll get s o m e back budding. Done at the right time of year
back budding can be a little more expected, feeding proactively, no food in Spring!!!
Main thing now is to prune upper and downward growing secondary branches, and always cut back
to a viable sustainable bud or terminal for now. You have heavy external growth that's going to rob interior
possibilities as hinoki does. Remember 3 year old needles drop, and the closer in to the trunk the older they are,
so your growth only goes out. Harder to chase interior growth back than BP.

I did heavy pruning on my dwarf EWP in Feb 2009 with no issues. Fall is a good time to prune.
I would prune even now for breath and light sake, of undesirable secondary branches before watering
and sealing all cuts. I think our climate is very good for WP in general. Leave a lot of bushy growth too,
for repotting sake next Spring just as the buds begin to swell :)
 

just.wing.it

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Sweet! I'm all about it!
I had a slight trajectory problem with my sprinklers one day and killed my collected EWP.
Been looking for a Blue Shag....I passed one up for $100 this spring....went back a week later and it was gone.
 

Japonicus

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Sweet! I'm all about it!
I had a slight trajectory problem with my sprinklers one day and killed my collected EWP.
Been looking for a Blue Shag....I passed one up for $100 this spring....went back a week later and it was gone.
I remember your mention of THAT! Shag. The dwarfs I got just over 10 years ago are the last I’ve seen here.
Unfortunately the one that lived this year is the one with the worst nebari.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Kigi Nursery https://kiginursery.com/dwarf-miniatures/pinus-strobus-blue-shag-dwarf-eastern-white-pine/

currently has 1 year old grafts for $40
nursery is good for the material they send. Note - a one year graft is young, it will need a lot of time, 5 to 10 years from graft to get a plant like the one the @BuckeyeOne posted. $40 is a little steep for a one year graft, but it is not totally out of line. It is not a common cultivar.

Kigi in the description calls it by the wrong name (Sea Urchin) but the description Kigi has for 'Sea Urchin' is different than the one for 'Blue Shag', and I checked the MoBot website and their description of 'Blue Shag' matches the Kigi description in enough details that I'm pretty sure the Kigi description is correct, justy that in typing the description someone called it the wrong name. Which means - walk very slow with this plant if you want to try to bonsai It. 'Blue Shag' is not, definitely not a good specimen for a beginner.

Reasons
It is a dwarf bordering on the definition of a miniature. It grows only 2 to 4 inches a year. Size at 10 years is 2 feet x 2 feet. Why is slow growth a problem? If you have trouble leaving a tree alone for a year to recover, try leaving it alone for 2 or 3 years.

Pruning to style - If your styling requires growing a new branch here or filling in there, instead of waiting a year or two - you might have to wait 5 or 10 years.

So when you style a slow growing dwarf, basically you try to keep absolutely every bit of foliage possible. Don't cut off anything you might want to fill back in, because it won't, at least not in reasonable time. Just wire up what you have, take off the least amount possible. And do not plan on it growing a branch here, or filling in there.

The description sounds like it becomes relatively dense over time. This may mean it produces multiple buds (similar to the 'yatsubusa' forms of some Japanese pines. This may be good long run, depending on whether you keep it growing fast or whether you do something to slow it down.

If / when you repot it, plan on more than 12 months for the tree to recover. Likely 24 to 36 months. Wait until you see lots of candle expanding in spring. THen you know it has recovered. No pruning while waiting for recovery from repotting. Wiring in late summer, autumn is okay.

SO while dwarf conifers may look cool for bonsai, make sure they grow 4 or more inches a year, preferably more than 6 inches a year. That way you can actually get growth you can work with to style and train your tree.

Good luck, I would just let it grow at least one year just as it is, in that pot. Measure, or mark several branches, and see how much it actually grows for you. Maybe I'll be wrong, and then you can do a more typical styling on it.
 

Potawatomi13

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SO while dwarf conifers may look cool for bonsai, make sure they grow 4 or more inches a year, preferably more than 6 inches a year. That way you can actually get growth you can work with to style and train your tree.

While more growth can be helpful for speeds sake some appreciate a more peaceful pace and grow Bristlecone, Limber and other slower growing trees and appreciate very much their relative peacefulness and relief from the frenetic pace of constantly managing such wild growing weeds as JBP, maples and several other weedy growing trees that require nearly constant labor to keep in check. Love and appreciate what you have and best of fortune;).
 

BuckeyeOne

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I understand the advice to leave alone for now and just keep happy!

If @Leo in N E Illinois reports that 1 year cuttings are $40, I don't feel too bad spending $150 on this one!! And by the size, I'm estimating it to be 8-10 years old.

The soil it is in seems to be fairly free draining, but I killed my hinoki by overwatering. I'll have to be more vigilant with this one.

The one issue I will have to contend with is the large whorl in the second picture. Unfortunately it occurs just above the second set of branches which means if I try and remove it I'll lose the top half of the tree!!

And lastly, a question regarding the pine cones. Should I wait for them to drop and try and harvest the seeds?

Buck
 

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Leo in N E Illinois

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Don't worry about whorls causing reverse taper. Not yet. Not for a couple years. They grow slow. You have time to design your tree first.

Get a year or more of observing growth rate, this is not your run of the mill EWP, it is quite different.

The best moisture meter invented is the human finger, more accurate than any $200 electronic meter. Dig your finger in to at least first knuckle, to determine moisture. Then heft, or lift or otherwise feel the weight of the pot. A dry pot will be light, wet media will be heavy. In a nursery pot, daily watering is probably too much, nurseries like to water once a week.

This year, take time to plan out, draw out, a design with the tree. Make several alternates. Really think about it. Have someone with more experience suggest a design. (not me, design is not my strength). Discuss with whom ever you show it to that you want to remove as little foliage as possible, because it won't be replaced in a timely manner.

Watch how this unique cultivar grows, you might see a pattern that would make it easier to design. Take the time to get to know this thing.

Work on other trees, so that you don't get tempted to tackle this one before you are ready. To me $150 is a lot of money, I'd take my time to get the best out of it. In order to get myself to leave a tree alone, I need at least 50 sticks in pots to distract me from pestering ''that cool tree waiting in the corner''.

Or plant it in the ground as a unique garden tree.
 

GGB

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Hey good news! Someone ... cant .. remember ... who... on this site has a dwarf EWP (might even be shag) and it looks pretty good. Maybe they'll pop by. I think they have a dog pic as their avatar but that doesn't really narrow things down too much round here. Definitely take your time and don't rush it. Youd could end up with a cool tree. I personally would leave the roots alone for a little while and focus on preventing the whorl knuckles from ruining the tree with inverse taper. Certainly not the guy to advise you beyond that though. I also notice that while needle blights/fungus have railed all my pines the EWP in my landscape seems totally uneffected
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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While more growth can be helpful for speeds sake some appreciate a more peaceful pace and grow Bristlecone, Limber and other slower growing trees and appreciate very much their relative peacefulness and relief from the frenetic pace of constantly managing such wild growing weeds as JBP, maples and several other weedy growing trees that require nearly constant labor to keep in check. Love and appreciate what you have and best of fortune;).

I'm in the midwest, I don't recall seeing more than one or two bristlecone pines at shows. Similarly only a handful of limber pines. Part of the reason, is they grow slow enough that they always look only partially developed. They won't look mature enough to be allowed to be displayed at a medium high quality show like the August show at Chicago Botanic Garden. The only ones I recall seeing were wild collected, ancient trees, which one would have to purchase in the midwest if you did not collect yourself. The price tags would be in the thousands. Little or no nursery material of bristlecones available, and when available, they look like seedlings. Not like bonsai.

You need growth to be able to style, and develop a tree.
 

GGB

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haha just realized Leo gave you opposite advice just minutes before me. oops listen to that guy. I guess I just get too worried about that kind of stuff
 

garywood

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I understand the advice to leave alone for now and just keep happy!

If @Leo in N E Illinois reports that 1 year cuttings are $40, I don't feel too bad spending $150 on this one!! And by the size, I'm estimating it to be 8-10 years old.

The soil it is in seems to be fairly free draining, but I killed my hinoki by overwatering. I'll have to be more vigilant with this one.

The one issue I will have to contend with is the large whorl in the second picture. Unfortunately it occurs just above the second set of branches which means if I try and remove it I'll lose the top half of the tree!!

And lastly, a question regarding the pine cones. Should I wait for them to drop and try and harvest the seeds?

Buck

Buck, most WP cones open a good bit earlier than other pines. Also, the cone opens rather quickly compared to other pines. When the cone turns completely brown remove it and put in a paper bag or container that's not sealed and place it somewhere at outdoor temp until it opens. You won't have to search for the seeds.
 

BuckeyeOne

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@garywood , Thanks for the advice on the cones. Just think, if I get them to seed, at $40 per seedling, I might recoup some of the money I spent on this one!!!
@Leo in N E Illinois , Does this mean I have to go out and get another 30 sticks in pots to play with?? Cool!!

This one will definitely be a long term project if I can keep the friggin VC off it. I just was watering some of my other trees and found 3 small branches on the ground next to the tree!! Can only assume that a squirrel decided it was lunch time. Bastard!

This one may go into a better pot and be presented as an accent in the bonsai area of the garden for awhile as I ponder its design.

Thanks for all the replies!!

Buck.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Sweet! I'm all about it!
I had a slight trajectory problem with my sprinklers one day and killed my collected EWP.
Been looking for a Blue Shag....I passed one up for $100 this spring....went back a week later and it was gone.

Man, yours is dead? I'm sad to hear that. I don't remember if it was you or 0hsoyoung, but one of you two guys told me to knock the buds off of my EWP so induce lower budding. So I did. Somewhere in winter if memory serves me right, and it's not serving me right now. So anyone reading this, check up with the original source!
It was scary as hell to not see it wake up in spring, and not at the start of summer, and then almost halfway through summer, suddenly 3-5 buds per branch popped up and started growing immediately.
The tree went from something unworkable with a friggin' nice nebari, to something I think that could possibly be a nice tree in the future.
 

0soyoung

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I don't remember if it was you or 0hsoyoung, but one of you two guys told me to knock the buds off of my EWP so induce lower budding.
I'll take the blame for that.

You can move the timing of it (in spring) to tune needle lengths which I've loosely framed as 'one can treat it like a JBP'.
One can also partially prune hardened shoots in fall to get yet more back budding (fascicular).


I'm glad it worked out for you as well as I knew it would. ;)
 

Japonicus

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Yes the dwarf will take time. It already has used a bit of time to get to here.
EWP4.jpg
If you notice how leggy the bottom 2 left branches are in this pic
and no doubt the angle of the shot obscures some of the same elsewhere,
but the longer you do nothing, the leggier it will permanently get.

Planting in the ground takes much more care than, say a juniper.
It requires annual care I failed to give mine, and while that created a great
trunk with good bark in under 10 years on my dwarf EWP, it also created heavy problems
with branches I failed to keep in check, requiring a drastic prune, all the way down to the bottom branch
for the new top. I advocate in ground with perpetual care, and the trunk can triple in girth, and add more bark
than is possible in a pot. You just have to get down in the dirt and waller around now and then.

As an accent tree in your garden, it's a fantastic choice for sure. Just don't ignore it. Even the Japanese gardens with
beautiful pines require dedication.
2 W Pines in ground.jpg DSC_2156.JPG
Feb 14, 2009 to June 26, 2018, bad angle to show in ground trunk actually oblong oval shaped over 3"
and the one in the pot, maybe 1.25" at best.
In this time, I did nothing to reduce the height of this true dwarf.
And no inverse taper due to whorls.
DSC_2302.JPG
and this is what happens when you leave the plastic nursery I.D. label
on too long and the trunk grows into it. Irreversible damage. Just don't ignore the tree ;) Work on it.
 

BuckeyeOne

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@Japonicus , I followed the thread on your EWP. It was a nice progression from what I've been told is a non- bonsai species. Maybe that's why I like them!

Understood as to the leggy branches on the bottom left. The one to the rear as I see the front needs to go now!

I'll take a few more pictures tomorrow and we can discuss further.

I'm taking my time with this one, but I am a little inpatient.

Slow down, Buck!!
 

Japonicus

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@Japonicus , I followed the thread on your EWP. It was a nice progression from what I've been told is a non- bonsai species.
I went way way out of my comfort zone with that tree, with more than one annual insult.
Obviously out of the trees comfort zone as well unfortunately.
The Blue shag you have appears to have shorter nodes between the whorls than mine, not sure.
Very nice addition to the garden
 
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