Experience not theories please

[Anthony]

General Response.

You know I saw Vance W. being given what I would call a hard time. The man has experience!
Most of you folk have ideas/theories and very little experience in just the Horticultural part of Bonsai, forget the design.

An example - you find a large stump - just leave the poor thing in a container for often 3 years, get it healthy, don't carve it, and do so because you feel like a bonsai master.
We collected 4, 8 year old Tamarinds, and they will be left alone for 3 to 4 years, to recover.

With regards to pot choices. If you truly put a good deal of yourself into the training of the tree, when the time for the pot comes, get yourself to the potter, and preferably take the tree, photos don't work. Discuss the situation, and be prepared to spend.

Don't put the cart before the horse. You can observe at exhibitions and at homes, but each tree is an individual, and your design should also be individual, and if you truly value it, get thee to a potter.
Or just buy a simple generic pot.

Yes, no one knows it all, but common sense, don't drive away the older heads.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[jk_lewis]

There are several phases to being a bonsaiest on the web:

1. I have no idea what I'm doing -- HELP!
2. Is this how it's done? Thanks.
3. I've been doing bonsai for a year. I have read a book (or scanned a web page), so you MUST do it THIS way!
4. My guru does it this way; there IS no other way.
5. Here are a few options for your tree.
6. If you use the search function on this site you will find XXX answers to this question.
7. OH MY GOD! NOT AGAIN!
8. Silence.

 

[Poink88]

3. I've been doing bonsai for a year. I have read a book (or scanned a web page), so you MUST do it THIS way!

Not quite me, but close.

Are you this?

9. I failed to do this so you cannot do it. CANNOT be done...IMPOSSIBLE!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

OMG! NOT AGAIN!

Its simple: you like Vance's results, do what Vance does. If not, replace that name with another.

 

[coh]

LOL...good way to start off the week.

 

[thams]

I think this counts as celebrating vets.

 

[Poink88]

Most of you folk have ideas/theories and very little experience in just the Horticultural part of Bonsai, forget the design.

An example - you find a large stump - just leave the poor thing in a container for often 3 years, get it healthy, don't carve it, and do so because you feel like a bonsai master.
We collected 4, 8 year old Tamarinds, and they will be left alone for 3 to 4 years, to recover.

With regards to pot choices. If you truly put a good deal of yourself into the training of the tree, when the time for the pot comes, get yourself to the potter, and preferably take the tree, photos don't work. Discuss the situation, and be prepared to spend.

Don't put the cart before the horse. You can observe at exhibitions and at homes, but each tree is an individual, and your design should also be individual, and if you truly value it, get thee to a potter.
Or just buy a simple generic pot.

I disagree.

Why always require years in your post and almost mandate it to be the only way to go? It works for you great, share it then let it.

It is one way to say you need to learn to count before you try to multiply...it is another to say you need to be in 2nd grade before you can multiply. Celebrate when a kid can multiply at age 4...here that 4 year old will be told to wait 3 more years before he can do that. Disgusting!

Some people want to go another way...NOT because they feel LIKE BONSAI MASTER but just because it is their way.

I need to take my hyper tension meds.

 

[Paradox]

OMG! NOT AGAIN!

Its simple: you like Vance's results, do what Vance does. If not, replace that name with another.

Quoted for truth

 

[Anthony]

Dario,

frequently the stored energy in a stump is in the living part of the tree. I don't want to say cambium because I haven't done Biology for years, and someone might say - hah - wrong section, this is why you are wrong etc. and miss what I am trying to pass on.

Something has to regenerate the fine root feeders and the buds.
Carving off the live part will further weaken the tree, and you -might - lose the specimen.

It is safer to let the tree heal, and in a given mix.

So what if it takes 3 to 4 years. In Bonsai time who will care.
That is all I am saying.

I am not saying this is the only way.
One is free to experiment.
However, if the experiment is not successful, why show the beginning, fail and have folk laugh at you?
Show the end, and take good written records, see if you can improve the situation.

Know how many folk I have seen rush the stump bit and how many stumps just died.
Do you know how many experiments we do, but only show when they are finished?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Dr.GreenThumb]

Anthony,

If a tree is not healthy, don't do any work on it because it will probably die. That has to do with logic, I guess we all agree on that.
But a tree can be healthy after a few month or after a few years.
Nature decides not us, so you cannot set any rules (3-4 year ?! why ?).

Our job is to detect when a tree is healthy and do the work at the right period.

 

[Poink88]

Anthony,

If a tree is not healthy, don't do any work on it because it will probably die. That has to do with logic, I guess we all agree on that.
But a tree can be healthy after a few month or after a few years.
Nature decides not us, so you cannot set any rules (3-4 year ?! why ?).

Our job is to detect when a tree is healthy and do the work at the right period.

Exactly.

There is "communication" going on between the tree and it's owner...not verbal but if you observe, the tree can tell you when it is ready for some work.

I still have a few trees I collected almost 2 years ago that are not ready. Others were re-potted, trimmed, wired, etc. several times already. Some are taking some much needed rest. I post a lot but do not post nearly everything I do (and don't do). It is presumptuous for anyone to think they know everything that happens in my back yard.

 

[Anthony]

Dr.Green Thumb,

the 3 to 4 years, is what we have determined to be a safe situation.

Plus, if I collected stumps with rare personality, I would take my time.
Once it is dead, it is dead.
Large stumps can live for a long time, even bud/branch and just die.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Dario,

once again --- it is your studio, and do as you think correct.

I can only speak from our experience, it does not have to agree with your experience.

BUT if your tree stumps die, you can not say I did not care about you.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Poink88]

One is free to experiment.
However, if the experiment is not successful, why show the beginning, fail and have folk laugh at you?
Show the end, and take good written records, see if you can improve the situation.

Know how many folk I have seen rush the stump bit and how many stumps just died.
Do you know how many experiments we do, but only show when they are finished?

Anthony,

I share my experiments both the good results and bad. People can laugh at me, I have no problem with that...just hope someone else learn from what I did. Hopefully, he/she/they use it or build on it and make it better.

No one wants to make bonsai look/sound easy, NO ONE. Why? No money there and makes everyone who invested years/decades on it feeling "diminished". Not saying bonsai is easy but it can be easier than most make it to be.

I know I will get lots of flack for this but it is the truth.

 

[Poink88]

BUT if your tree stumps die, you can not say I did not care about you.

Noted and I thank you.

BTW, I ALWAYS own my actions.

 

[Anthony]

Dario,

the problem is actually very simple to solve.

Just grow, one type of tree, but grow at least 20 to 30.
Why, because you will at the end have focus and experience enough to make that tree type dance.

It is when you have variety, that the problem pops up.

When learning to draw well in Fine Art, the primary focus is the human model, done 3 hours daily Monday to Friday, additionally, you study anatomy and how light affects the shape.
At the end of 3 years, you can draw a human in your sleep, provided you took the time to draw from memory. [ this supplied via Uncle K.]

Bonsai would go much faster if it were taught like Fine Art.
So if you want efficiency, there it is.
Good Day
Anthony

* Also noted, for almost all of the zones, Tropical, Sub-Tropical, Temperate, Warm or Cold and treeline, there are fast growing, finely branching trees, each adapted to the spring,autumn growth spurts.
Locate one for your area, and just grow that.

Hah, haven't seen anyone with that approach!

 

[Anthony]

And hee hee Dario,

here is how you do the singular training bit -

Fukien Tea
Sageretia t.
Southern Chinese Elm
Serissa [ Chinese type ]
Chinese privet

Note with the exception of Sageretia t. all of the above produce fine branching and 3 to 5" trunks in 6 months to 3 years.
[ Wonder why the Chinese export these by the ton ?]

The sageretia takes longer to trunk thicken, but they produce such fine branching, flaking bark and interesting shapes you have to admire them.

We have grown the Fukien tea on the lawn to 8" trunks, but it is better to slow grow as the wood hardens to high resistance as decay goes.

The elm, in 6 months in a 1/3 US 55 gallon barrel will take on a trunk of 2 to 3". [ compost blended soils mind you.

The serissa will take 3 to 5 years and is branch trained along the way.

The privet grows well down here for 5 years and then fades, but makes a 3" trunk in two years in the ground, to a height of 12 to 14 feet.

All of these plants will produce large trunks and very fine branching. They just need someone to focus on them.

To this list we can also add Tamarind, Gmelina , Hackberrys, J.B.P [ as shown in Bonsai Today 3" trunks in 5 years .] and local trees still not given Latin names.

We limit the trunk size to 3 to 5 " because, this will give good tree heights or width's of 15 inches to 24 inches to 30 inches [ we use the 1 to 5 and 1 to 6 proportions 1 inch trunk to say 5 or 6 inches of height.]
After that it is too heavy, actually 15" height is already too heavy, if the pot is premium grade.

Additionally, the trees in the first list will grow in up to zone 7 outdoors, although the Fukien tea might be zone 9.
The Chinese grow these trees for export in large acres of land. You often see the mud in the pots when you buy a plant.

It is an old idea, the Chinese mastered a long,long time ago.

Ficus is not mentioned, because, it is difficult to get fine branching, and neither of us, really like fatty trunks, aerial roots and bushed tops.
Still we have been testing Ficus b. and Ficus p.

Growing big trunks is very easy, but Designs take time.

There are very few trees that can outshine the first list of trees when they are well designed, but most folk ignore them, because of the Mallsai status, which is sad.
I can guarantee anyone who masters single tree growing, will have very impressive results, one they apply the design to the horticulture.

Let's face it in Bonsai, fine twigging, good trunk shapes, fine radial root distribution will always beat out the coarse trees, by miles.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Dr.GreenThumb]

Dr.Green Thumb,

the 3 to 4 years, is what we have determined to be a safe situation.
(...)
Anthony

Haha, who is "We" ? The supreme knowledge and yourself ?
What makes you think you are right and it's the only way to go ????!!!
Because you have had successful results like that and failed otherwise ?

Guess what, if you look around and take time to "observe" instead of giving lessons, you will discover that many people do it another way and have results as good as yours, even better.


I'm sorry but your way of thinking is very "rigid".

Dario,

the problem is actually very simple to solve.

Just grow, one type of tree, but grow at least 20 to 30.
Why, because you will at the end have focus and experience enough to make that tree type dance.
(...)

Again, you have to accept that people are different.
Some people learn quicker and will need 4-5 trees to learn as much as you with 30 trees.
Other might need 50 before understanding half of it.

If you are happy specializing with one specie to master it, good for you.
I prefer to grow a few of several species, because I like to see their differences.
That's the way I go and I'm happy like that, who can tell me that's the right way or not ?


In a way, I just wanna say that this topic will just create a sterile debate.

 

[Ron Dennis]

OMG! NOT AGAIN!

Its simple: you like Vance's results, do what Vance does. If not, replace that name with another.

I think I heard "Common Sense" knocking on my door.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I think...bottom line...is what each individual is willing to risk.