Exsanguinating Trident

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Kirk,

great trunk and nebari. I would cut at least another 50 to 65 % of that trunk right away. You have to pkan for future growth. Otherwise you will get a trunk which is way too high. Folks come with such trees after ten years to workshops and I tell them to cut at least half off the trunk. They cannot believe that I am telling them to destroy ten year's work.

This is absolutely true. If you keep this trunk, in ten years you will know you need to cut it again. If you chop it now, you have ten years' worth of healing on that wound. And a better tree.

Chris
 

Kirk

Mame
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Kirk,

great trunk and nebari. I would cut at least another 50 to 65 % of that trunk right away. You have to pkan for future growth. Otherwise you will get a trunk which is way too high. Folks come with such trees after ten years to workshops and I tell them to cut at least half off the trunk. They cannot believe that I am telling them to destroy ten year's work.

Thanks, Walter. The trunk is too tall. I left that extra 60% as wiggle room so that I could ere on the side of caution. Once it started to back bud I would reduce it further. From what you are saying, it will probably pop buds too high for the intended design rather than all of the way down the trunk. The nebari and few inches of ribbed trunk are all I really wanted to work with but wasn't sure how much die-back would occur after a drastic cut. I may go ahead and reduce further rather than continue being a nervous nelly over its survival. Everyone's input has been very encouraging.

The plan is to have a more deciduous styling for the tree rather than the "sumo conifer" trident.

My best,
Kirk
 
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Tachigi

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In early June I purchased a container grown trident from a nursery. The trunk is approx. 5 inches with a nebari puddling out to almost 12 inches. A fellow club member with quite a bit of success growing tridents thought it would be fine to go ahead with a drastic pruning and take the tree down to a 3 ft. stump, let it back-bud and go from there. Normally I do drastic chopping like that in late winter/early spring. Since the chop it has been bleeding profusely, pushing off every application of cut paste. Now it is starting to smell like rot. There are a few open buds near the base where some shoots/suckers were at one point but nothing higher along the trunk.

Is there any way to resolve the bleeding and save this patient? Would anyone with trident experience like to venture a prognosis for survival? I've never had this experience before.

Kirk, the first thing you have to realize is that a tree is a living, breathing hydraulic pump, it moves food and water in a liquid state.

  • A

    The outer bark is the tree's protection from the outside world. Continually renewed from within, it helps keep out moisture in the rain, and prevents the tree from losing moisture when the air is dry. It insulates against cold and heat and wards off insect enemies
  • B

    The inner bark, or “phloem”, is pipeline through which food is passed to the rest of the tree. It lives for only a short time, then dies and turns to cork to become part of the protective outer bark.

  • C

    The cambium cell layer is the growing part of the trunk. It annually produces new bark and new wood in response to hormones that pass down through the phloem with food from the leaves. These hormones, called “auxins”, stimulate growth in cells. Auxins are produced by leaf buds at the ends of branches as soon as they start growing in spring.

  • D

    Sapwood is the tree's pipeline for water moving up to the leaves. Sapwood is new wood. As newer rings of sapwood are laid down, inner cells lose their vitality and turn to heartwood.

  • E

    Heartwood is the central, supporting pillar of the tree. Although dead, it will not decay or lose strength while the outer layers are intact. A composite of hollow, needlelike cellulose fibers bound together by a chemical glue called lignin, it is in many ways as strong as steel. A piece 12” long and 1” by 2” in cross section set vertically can support a weight of twenty tons!

You need to pay particular attention to item "D".

I question the advise you received about chopping a tree in the south in June because this is one of the months that your tree's hydraulic system is in overdrive. Pumping water to the leaves for all its worth. When you cut the trunk it doesn't realize that the top is gone till the roots register that there is nothing coming back down the pipe line like excess water.

Like any well operating hydraulic system when the circuit is cut it vents fluid. This manifests itself as water running down the side of the trunk. This water is also under pressure and will blow cut paste off, as well as Vaseline, plumbers putty or any other concoction. I have found that if I "HAVE" to chop, girdling the trunk or branch an inch or so below the chop will almost stop all water loss preserving the trunk or branch.

So what if you loss water from a trunk in summer? Without anything above to register to the plant that it should keep sending water up the pipe line it will close the life line off...conserve its energy. Which in turn usually kills the trunk, only letting the base survive where it is relatively cool and damp. This is why your seeing suckering towards the base.

I would have stuck with your original methods and been patient. I hope that your trunk survives as I'm sure it wasn't cheap. I would suggest two other things. First, if your going to spend substantial bucks on a tree make sure you know tree physiology and what happens if you do something to tree that might have an adverse effect at a given time during the year. Second, look outside your club for advise because what you were told was plain wrong.
 

Kirk

Mame
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Kirk, the first thing you have to realize is that a tree is a living, breathing hydraulic pump, it moves food and water in a liquid state.

  • A

    The outer bark is the tree's protection from the outside world. Continually renewed from within, it helps keep out moisture in the rain, and prevents the tree from losing moisture when the air is dry. It insulates against cold and heat and wards off insect enemies
  • B

    The inner bark, or “phloem”, is pipeline through which food is passed to the rest of the tree. It lives for only a short time, then dies and turns to cork to become part of the protective outer bark.

  • C

    The cambium cell layer is the growing part of the trunk. It annually produces new bark and new wood in response to hormones that pass down through the phloem with food from the leaves. These hormones, called “auxins”, stimulate growth in cells. Auxins are produced by leaf buds at the ends of branches as soon as they start growing in spring.

  • D

    Sapwood is the tree's pipeline for water moving up to the leaves. Sapwood is new wood. As newer rings of sapwood are laid down, inner cells lose their vitality and turn to heartwood.

  • E

    Heartwood is the central, supporting pillar of the tree. Although dead, it will not decay or lose strength while the outer layers are intact. A composite of hollow, needlelike cellulose fibers bound together by a chemical glue called lignin, it is in many ways as strong as steel. A piece 12” long and 1” by 2” in cross section set vertically can support a weight of twenty tons!

You need to pay particular attention to item "D".

I question the advise you received about chopping a tree in the south in June because this is one of the months that your tree's hydraulic system is in overdrive. Pumping water to the leaves for all its worth. When you cut the trunk it doesn't realize that the top is gone till the roots register that there is nothing coming back down the pipe line like excess water.

Like any well operating hydraulic system when the circuit is cut it vents fluid. This manifests itself as water running down the side of the trunk. This water is also under pressure and will blow cut paste off, as well as Vaseline, plumbers putty or any other concoction. I have found that if I "HAVE" to chop, girdling the trunk or branch an inch or so below the chop will almost stop all water loss preserving the trunk or branch.

So what if you loss water from a trunk in summer? Without anything above to register to the plant that it should keep sending water up the pipe line it will close the life line off...conserve its energy. Which in turn usually kills the trunk, only letting the base survive where it is relatively cool and damp. This is why your seeing suckering towards the base.

I would have stuck with your original methods and been patient. I hope that your trunk survives as I'm sure it wasn't cheap. I would suggest two other things. First, if your going to spend substantial bucks on a tree make sure you know tree physiology and what happens if you do something to tree that might have an adverse effect at a given time during the year. Second, look outside your club for advise because what you were told was plain wrong.

Thanks, Tom. That is very good and concise information. I remember the A-E from my Plant Phys. The decision to make the drastic pruning was based, as I mentioned, on the advice of a local trident (for bonsai) grower. At this point it's just a waiting game. Fortunately, the investment was minimal by any budget. I just didn't want to see good material and a nice tree lost. As a professional in the horticulture field I take great pride in the health of my plants and the decisions I make in their cultivation. That's why this one has been such a bugger to me, and first first real posting on BN seeking advice. I appreciate the great responses.

Warmly,
Kirk
 

ml_work

Chumono
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Reading this I find some really good information, thanks to all of you that have taken the time to help with this. I am sure this information will be needed at some time of me.

Tom,
Quote:I have found that if I "HAVE" to chop, girdling the trunk or branch an inch or so below the chop will almost stop all water loss preserving the trunk or branch.

Please Explain "girdling"

if this is a hijack of the thread could you start another one
Thanks,
Michael
 
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