Fall Pulling Of Needles On Single Flush Pines

[mrcasey]

I'm still not quite clear on which year's needles are pulled from single flush pines in the fall. I know it's not the current year's needles, but is it the
second or third year's? Are sylvestris, parviflora, and mugo handled differently?

 

[sorce]

I'm still not quite clear on which year's needles are pulled from single flush pines in the fall. I know it's not the current year's needles, but is it the
second or third year's? Are sylvestris, parviflora, and mugo handled differently?

The "bowtie" is taught, removing the top and bottom needles. But unless those top and bottom needles are really shading something out, there's no need to remove em IMO.

Unless, and this is more of a refined tree technique anyway, you are looking for buds on the sides when cutting back, then bowtying removes tops and bottoms for the most part, and strengthens the side buds.

But .....

Only having buds on the sides is quite limiting, since they occur where they occur.

What if you want a branch to fork at 6CM,
But your side buds occur at 5 and 7 CM?

Then you messed up.

Things like this should always be figured out before mindlessly obeying anything taught.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

The "bowtie" is taught, removing the top and bottom needles. But unless those top and bottom needles are really shading something out, there's no need to remove em IMO.

Unless, and this is more of a refined tree technique anyway, you are looking for buds on the sides when cutting back, then bowtying removes tops and bottoms for the most part, and strengthens the side buds.

But .....

Only having buds on the sides is quite limiting, since they occur where they occur.

What if you want a branch to fork at 6CM,
But your side buds occur at 5 and 7 CM?

Then you messed up.

Things like this should always be figured out before mindlessly obeying anything taught.

Sorce

@sorce, if your side buds are at 5 and 7 cm, be happy you have side buds! If you MUST have a side bud at 6cm, you’ll have to graft it on.

Backbudding from needle buds is rare. Especially in single flush pines. Most backbudding occurs at old joints. Backbudding propensity varies a lot between species and within a given species, between cultivars.

In my working with JWP extensively, I find it best to not depend on backbudding from needle buds. If you get some, great! But I’m FAR more likely to get a backbud from an old joint which I can nurture into a new branch. Cleaning out old needles so the joints are exposed to the sun is the best method of stimulating this.

Removing old needles during the fall is a cleaning activity. I remove the ones that are brown, yellow, or in the process of yellowing. It varies by species and by individual tree how long each tree holds its old needles before they start to shed.

On one of my Zuisho JBP, it starts to shed 1 1/2 year old needles in August. I have another Zuisho, another airlayer from the same stock as the other, and it doesn’t start to shed its needles until late September. Go figure.

And different varieties of JWP vary. I have a Kokonoe, where it sheds SOME of the one year old needles, but not all! Again, go figure.

The “bow tie” method you speak of is more successful with the double flush pines. It “might” work occasionally with a single flush pine, but it’s a long shot. I’m just making sure people have reasonable expectations.

 

[sorce]

The “bow tie” method you speak of is more successful with the double flush pines

I'm talking about what @Vance Wood teaches for Mugo mostly.

Mugo and JWP, (parvlifora?) Must be extremely different, cuz I get nothing BUT needle buds on mugos, and I haven't even attempted to get them.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

if your side buds are at 5 and 7 cm, be happy you have side buds! If you MUST have a side bud at 6cm, you’ll have to graft it on

So the BEST thing an educated person will do in this scenario is not simply keep the top and bottom bud and spin the branch.....

The best thing thing an educated person will do is graft?

No.

See how you speak with this false intelligence?

Doing something absolutely stupid to remedy something that could have been prevented by doing it the right way on the first place.

.......

Maybe there is a reason those needle buds are so fleeting. Following stupid rules.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

So the BEST thing an educated person will do in this scenario is not simply keep the top and bottom bud and spin the branch.....

The best thing thing an educated person will do is graft?

No.

See how you speak with this false intelligence?

Doing something absolutely stupid to remedy something that could have been prevented by doing it the right way on the first place.

.......

Maybe there is a reason those needle buds are so fleeting. Following stupid rules.

Sorce

Spinning the twig doesn’t relocate the bud.

Sorce, I know you have an issue with me. I’m not trying to pick a fight, I’m trying to share my experience.

I don’t have any Mugo pines. They are Northern species and don’t do well in my climate. If the bow tie method work well for them, great! It does not work well for JWP.

 

[sorce]

Spinning the twig doesn’t relocate the bud.

How not?

In a quarter turn, it does.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

I know you have an issue with me.

I really sincerely truely don't!

I think a lot of it has to do with the material in our minds eye, which is surely different!

It's why anyone asking questions should provide detailed pictures of what they are talking about very specifically....

Well, I can't say that either cuz the chat and banter usually provides new ideas, which is always good.

If I can show assure you I am not out to get you, I believe everything can be alright. But sometimes I feel like you have a problem with my existence.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter because it's really just an argument inside a system that is terribly broken.

Fix the system and the argument doesn't exist.

What I know know....

I'm glad I don't have you on ignore, and personally, I think most of us enjoy a good wild thread! If they don't enjoy it, they don't realize they need it! Ha!

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

How not?

In a quarter turn, it does.

Sorce

You can move it from up/down to side/side or vice verse, but it doesn’t move where it is on the branch. It doesn’t move it forward or back, just it’s orientation.

Twisting a branch, I do all the time with wire.

Incidentally, I usually don’t have to figure out whether I’m twisting clockwise or counter clockwise and spin the wire accordingly. That’s the way Kathy Shaner does it. She wires “loose” then spins the branch, and the wire tightens as she spins (twists).

I do it differently. I spin the branch as I’m applying wire. So that when I’m done, the branch is in it’s new orientation. It doesn’t matter whether the wire is going with or against the spin, it’s holding the branch in place.

Same with repositioning a branch. To the extent possible, I’ll move the branch to it’s new position as I wire. As opposed to applying the wire in it’s current position, then bending it. Oh, I’ll have to make adjustments, but positioning (Bending) THEN wiring is far more effective than Wiring then bending.

Really heavy bending, the stuff you do with guy wires, rebar, and jacks, is a different matter, of course.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I'm still not quite clear on which year's needles are pulled from single flush pines in the fall. I know it's not the current year's needles, but is it the
second or third year's? Are sylvestris, parviflora, and mugo handled differently?

JWP is handled differently than Pinus sylvestris and Pinus mugo. The techniques for JWP do inform the background for the techniques for Mugo and sylvestris, but there are some significant differences. The needles of sylvestris and mugo will persist many more years than the needles of JWP, so this changes what you do.

So each species is essentially "Its own thing" you make adjustments in the when to do what for each species of pine. Mugo and sylvestris have somewhat different timing issues. Though they are more similar to each other than to the way to handle JWP.

Second, pulling of needles is more important for trees in refinement. It is not necessary for young trees where you are trying to get growth and bulk up trunks. So more specifics about which species and the stage of development that tree is in are important before giving useful guidance on whether to pull needles or not. It is not an "automatic" activity for all pines at all stages of development. It really is a technique with a purpose.

read this thread

Tutorial - Compiled Vance Wood on Mugo Pines

Compiled Posts by Vance Wood on Mugo Pines UPDATED 5/20/2018 Vance, I have gathered posts you made on B-Nut over the years from the archives. I have consolidated this info below. I appreciate your sharing your years of experience with this...

www.bonsainut.com

and search the pine forum on BNut with the site search tool to find similar specifics for Pinus sylvestris. .

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Read @Adair M threads to get the detailed discussions of techniques for JWP. He is my "go to guy" for JWP and JBP.

 

[River's Edge]

which species and the stage of development that tree is in are important

Exactly!
Ones actions need to be informed by ones purpose.
Also affected by the condition of the tree, cultivar of the species and climate.

 

[Housguy]

So each species is essentially "Its own thing" you make adjustments in the when to do what for each species of pine.

Any advice on a lodge pole pine? I have a collected one from 2016 and it is doing well, just never touched it, I want to understand it first.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I don't have lodgepole pines, but I do have their close relative, jack pine, Pinus banksiana. I have more or less been following the Vance Wood calendar for working on a Mugo pine, and it has been working.

But warning, You are in California, your climate is wildly different than my climate. I live in virtually the same climate as Vance Wood, so his calendar is right on for my climate, no shifting needed to adjust for climate zones.

In California I have no idea what you need to do different.

Wiring, should be done anytime from late summer through to late winter.

P. banksiana seems to hold needles 3 to 5 years. I have done zero needle pulling, really have not needed to. I do occasionally get needle buds to sprout, so I leave needles, because I want needle buds and back buds. So far, my jack pines are from 2015 & 2016, the only thing I have done is wiring, and repotting, and removed one or two branches.

I did repot in middle of summer, but that is because I'm in Michigan, In California, if you have summer temperatures above 95 F. I strongly recommend you do not repot until after the heat of summer is done. Consult local bonsai artists like @BrianBay9 for best timing of repotting in your area. My climate is too different from yours to guide your calendar.

 

[casey]

I watched a Kaizen video in which Graham Potter suggests only removing the third year needles on Scotts pine. The work
in the video was done in late summer. Potter goes on to say that some practitioners remove second-year needles but that it weakens and endangers the life of the tree. I guess that answers my question about sylvestris. Adair answered my question about parviflora.

I just read the compiled Vance Wood tutorial on mugo. If I understand correctly, every year by August, all upward and downward growing needles are removed. Does this mean that sideways facing needles are left on the branches indefinitely?
According to Google, mugo pine needles can stick around for 5 years. Doesn't that make the tree hard to wire without crushing
needles?

 

[Adair M]

I watched a Kaizen video in which Graham Potter suggests only removing the third year needles on Scotts pine. The work
in the video was done in late summer. Potter goes on to say that some practitioners remove second-year needles but that it weakens and endangers the life of the tree. I guess that answers my question about sylvestris. Adair answered my question about parviflora.

I just read the compiled Vance Wood tutorial on mugo. If I understand correctly, every year by August, all upward and downward growing needles are removed. Does this mean that sideways facing needles are left on the branches indefinitely?
According to Google, mugo pine needles can stick around for 5 years. Doesn't that make the tree hard to wire without crushing
needles?

Yes. It takes a little finesse and a lot of practice to get good at wiring Pines and spruce. JWP are much easier to wire than JBP, for various reasons. Old needles, remains if prior decandling, coarser bark, etc.

Practice, practice, practice!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

and yes, for mugo you keep side needles "for as long as they last".

Again, needle pulling is a technique to allow light to dormant buds at nodes, in the interior of the tree. It is not done "all the time" it is not done "every year on every pine". It is a specific technique done for a specific effect. It turns out that if you have Japanese black pine, in middle and advanced stages of development, you are doing needle plucking almost every year.

But if you are not raising advanced, well developed Japanese black pines, you are usually NOT needle plucking. It is only used for specific effect on trees in middle and advanced stages of development, and it is not necessarily done every year.