FEEDER ROOTS AND TAP ROOTS DISCUSSION PLEASE

[August44]

I would like to understand the way roots work on the trees that I am digging, mainly conifers like Larch and Pines and other that have tap rots when growing in rocks. I went up high yesterday and collected a neat, small SA Fir that was growing on the edge of a cliff in the rocks. It didn't look real healthy when I got up to it, but I was there and had been looking at it for several years, so away I went with the small pick, and the rock breaker. Right off the bat I uncovered a nice pocket of feeder roots and then a big root that went this way and that way in the small depression and then down through a very narrow crack to who knows where. The root was obviously being pinched as it expanded with growth going down through the crack. I had to cut the tap off where it went down through the crack and don't have a good feeling about the tree's surviving. I don't understand what tap roots are used for besides anchoring. There is usually no feeder roots on taps, they usually go down or away from the tree. I understand feeder roots I think, they feed the tree, so what is the tap root for? I know from experience, that most of the time, if you cut it off, the tree will die. I have always thought the tap's purpose was looking for water in dry areas, but I give the trees plenty of water and it still dies.

Maybe someone could explain the purpose of the root system to me. Thanks in advance

 

[August44]

These collectors that collect the bigger trees with 2-5" trunk bases on Pines and larches have to run into tap roots and the bigger the tree the bigger and longer the taps are. Do they just keep digging down until all of the tap is exposed and then collect it and the tree? Maybe the taps size and length are dependent on the ground they are in and ground moisture.

 

[bonsaichile]

No, you just cut it off of you have enough feeder roots close to the trunk. If you dont have then, then you dont collect the tree. Not all trees can be collected, and it is important to realize that, lets you kill a living organism that has been part of that particular ecosystem for decades. Tap roots anchor the tree. You dont need them in bonsai as we have other ways to stabilize a tree in a pot. Feeder roots keep the tree alive and many times are located at the end of a long tap root.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

A tap root in general doesn't contain a whole lot of feeder roots, but they do branch into roots that do contain a lot of feeders.
After years, feeder roots that become succesful can act as new tap roots. They aren't strictly "tap roots" but they serve the same purpose. Those roots can have hundreds of feeders on the end.

I agree with the statement that some plants are just not collectable. It's been awfully dry the past couple summers, and the pines I've been eyeballing have sent down huuuuuge roots deep down. They used to have a mat of feeders on the damp forest floor, but those dessiccated or have dug down deep and tripled in size, leaving no feeders behind. That means I've missed my window. Too bad. It is what it is.
Now I'm hoping for a bunch of wet summers so the deep roots drown and die off. Which would trigger more feeder root production closer to the base, if the process is slow enough. But that's a long shot.

Better to look for those rock pockets. And yes, could mean there's acres of nice trees to plow through. But it also means that survival rates will go up to 80% or higher.

 

[August44]

Thanks for the input. I have a pretty good survival rate on collected trees but have never tried to collect a tree like this before. As it was, way to much rock was broken loose and the tree exposed to try and put it back together. I am also thinking that the tree, judging by its health, would probably died within a few years because of the root being pinched the way it was. I have seen numerous trees around here up high, that were once beautiful bonsai type trees, but now skeletons because of that. I need to own a portable jackhammer.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Most of my experience with tap roots are with bald cypress....... a deciduous conifer. I've cut 5" taproots up to 1-2" from the soil line with no problem. My take is that MOST tap roots are mainly for stability and don't contribute a whole lot to feeding. I'm sure there are species that count on tap roots for more of their feeding needs, but I've never read about them.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Most of my experience with tap roots are with bald cypress....... a deciduous conifer. I've cut 5" taproots up to 1-2" from the soil line with no problem. My take is that MOST tap roots are mainly for stability and don't contribute a whole lot to feeding. I'm sure there are species that count on tap roots for more of their feeding needs, but I've never read about them.

I think one of them is Coast Live Oak. I have discovered through experience as well as reading here that if you cut the tap root of a young CLO, it will almost surely die. You really have to collect older trees that have developed feeder roots near the surface. Only then will it survive.

I'm sure there are other species that don't develop good roots near the surface for the first few years of their lives.

 

[ShadyStump]

I've made many attempts and done allot of research on collecting piñon pines. They are my favorite tree.
One thing I've learned is that they, like many pines native to more arid environments, start life by sending a long tap root down as fast and as far as they can. This anchors them, but also finds water deep below the surface where the hot summers can't dry the soil out. They go through the soft clay, in between rocks, and practically straight through bedrock, to find water. Once water is found, that main root will thicken and strengthen, a mass of feeder roots protruding in to every pocket of moisture along the way. If insufficient water is found, any root that has strength to grow will work to become another tap root seeking out more. I've seen fairly small trees resting in sand pockets, but with long running roots extending various directions for yards at a time across solid stone to find cracks where the water collects.
Most of many failures proceeded from not understanding exactly how important this habit is. The rest from poor after care. For trees native to semi-arid and arid climates, piñons are incredibly thirsty. Cut a tap root, and you kill the tree. Knock the tree completely over, but leave the tap roots intact, and you have a healthy if sideways tree.
I've also seen natural neagari in piñons that illustrate just how this works. As the roots dug ever downward, or in many cases horizontally, the earth around them would erode. I've seen trees literally hanging from a net of roots that dug into the wall of a cliff, sometimes with quite sizable stones carried in the exposed roots like eggs in a basket.

I'd be looking for that portable jackhammer myself, except it'd be no match for the mountain.

 

[Shibui]

IMHO tap root is a misnomer. All tree roots are feeder roots. All roots can also go deep in search of permanent water etc. We get fooled into belief in tap root when we see the radicle on germinating seeds heading down and believe that will continue until, somehow the roots will be something like the above ground part in reverse. Most trees actually have a mostly shallow lateral root system. Problem for us collectors is that many 'shallow' laterals are just a bit deeper than we can dig easily which reinforces the belief in huge downward tap roots. We see after storms when trees are uprooted - there's no big tap root broken off, just lots of broken laterals up to a couple of feet deep.
Granted that trees in arid conditions will send more roots deeper in search of moisture but those are not tap roots as such, just successful feeder roots that have found a source of nutrient and/or moisture.

Once we get over this irrational fear of 'tap root' it is quite easy to collect trees knowing that 50%-75% root reduction is possible for most trees and even more for many provided suitable after care.

 

[August44]

Here are some pictures that I should have poster earlier but dealing with snow etc here. As you can see, there are a number of feeder roots and then the big root that went back and forth in the small area before diving down through the narrow crack where I had to cut it off. This tree was re-potted in bonsai soil heavy on pumice. I will put it in the bonsai shed on heat for the winter. I have seen heat after collecting do wonders for trees that I did not think were going to make it. There is a picture of the cliff where I collected the tree also.

 

[ShadyStump]

IMHO tap root is a misnomer.

Yes and no.
We have a tendency to use the term, "tap root," for any root that goes deep, but in actuality it's much more specifically defined term scientifically. Some species have a root organ that is especially evolved to dig straight down under the trunk for the express purpose of anchoring and finding permanent water. They have this habit as a genetic trait, will always try to produce this specific feature in that specific manner, and THIS is what is actually a tap root.

In my previous post I was guilty of this to an extent. Piñons when young have a tap root as I just defined it, but as they grow older and mature this tap root switches gears to function like a standard root, and in situations where the initial tap root cannot go deep this shift in it's biological function happens even sooner.
This past spring I dug a tree (still some debate as to whether it's an American elm or a hackberry) but it very much had a conventionally defined tap root that went straight down under the trunk very deep. I had to cut it off at 1 foot to get anything out, but now we're getting into the differences between deciduous and conifers and what they can handle.

Anyways, tap root has a very specific horticultural definition, and we should all work on being more aware and more accurate in how we use the term, myself included.

 

[ShadyStump]

Here are some pictures that I should have poster earlier but dealing with snow etc here. As you can see, there are a number of feeder roots and then the big root that went back and forth in the small area before diving down through the narrow crack where I had to cut it off. This tree was re-potted in bonsai soil heavy on pumice. I will put it in the bonsai shed on heat for the winter. I have seen heat after collecting do wonders for trees that I did not think were going to make it. There is a picture of the cliff where I collected the tree also.

From what I see in your pics, as I just attempted to clarify in the last post, this is that actual tap root that, to my understanding, that is common in pines and cedar, and closely related families of trees. If these sorts of trees were found growing in ideal conditions, and it were possible to cut a cross section of the tree from the apex of the trunk to the apex of the tap root under the ground, the top and bottom would look like a mirror image of each other.
The properly defined tap root is essentially an extension of the trunk heading in the equal but opposite direction. Where above ground there's a trunk with branches and foliage, below there's a tap root with feeder roots and then the fine hairy looking roots that collect nutrients.

However, they rarely grow in ideal conditions, so the trees have evolved to adjust, sending out feeder roots as necessary for the situation.
One way or another, those feeder roots are the important part. Wherever they are, if you get enough of them the tree will survive, just as a trunk chop may not harm the tree if done under the right conditions because it still has the foliage it needs. What it needs is, of course, variable between genus and species.

Looks like the tree in question there might be in good shape so long as you're better than me about after care.

 

[BrianBay9]

I think one of them is Coast Live Oak. I have discovered through experience as well as reading here that if you cut the tap root of a young CLO, it will almost surely die. You really have to collect older trees that have developed feeder roots near the surface. Only then will it survive.

In my experience with coast live oak (CLO) this is not strictly true. I agree that young seedlings will die if the tap root is cut in the first year or two. But I've collected large CLO (3 - 6 inch base) with virtually no feeder roots. Cut the tap root, treated it like a big cutting. They usually survive this and generate a root system in a year or two.

This entire discussion really needs to be species specific.

 

[Wulfskaar]

In my experience with coast live oak (CLO) this is not strictly true. I agree that young seedlings will die if the tap root is cut in the first year or two. But I've collected large CLO (3 - 6 inch base) with virtually no feeder roots. Cut the tap root, treated it like a big cutting. They usually survive this and generate a root system in a year or two.

This entire discussion really needs to be species specific.

That's good to know. Is that because the tree is fat enough to store enough energy to create new roots as well as surviving the process?

 

[BrianBay9]

That's good to know. Is that because the tree is fat enough to store enough energy to create new roots as well as surviving the process?

That's my assumption. I would not make the same assumption about any other oak. Large CLO seem easier to collect than any other, in my experience.

 

[giventofly]

Can anyone provide that blog post talking about roots (tap, ball, etc)? I was tying to find it but i'm unable too

 

[penumbra]

Can anyone provide that blog post talking about roots (tap, ball, etc)? I was tying to find it but i'm unable too

Is this what you are looking for? https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/taproots-101.54433/#post-990212

 

[giventofly]

Yes, the link was in there! it was this one: https://aplustree.com/3-types-of-tree-root-systems/

 

[August44]

Is this what you are looking for? https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/taproots-101.54433/#post-990212

Thanks for that also penumbra! I will read up on that.