field collecting

[Corwyn13]

HI gang,

So I looked through the old threads and I am not really sure if I got an answer or not.

I have access to a few acres of land in MA US.

Mostly it's oaks but there is some native holly red cypress and maples.
Few that have some great potential.

So first question - should I be patient and wait until spring to collect or do it in the fall?

If in the fall what is the best way to over winter?


The second and more confusing, to me, issue is how to determine the size of the root ball to dig up.
Most of the trees I've been looking at are fairly small with 1-2" trunk.

But there is a great Oak that went complete natural literati with a trunk that is about 3" and
a field maple that looks like had a large branch broken off and the nebari is probably 5-7" inches.

 

[BrianBay9]

Fall and winter collecting both have their proponents. Personally I prefer early spring collection, particularly for deciduous species. As for the root ball, I think most people collecting deciduous trees try to get a root ball that is about the width of the canopy and deep enough to capture the first set of feeder roots. Many deciduous species can do well with a much smaller root ball, but if you have the ability to be more conservative then recovery will be faster. Consider that the root ball with soil may weigh a considerable amount, depending on the size of the tree you're collecting.

 

[rockm]

HI gang,

So I looked through the old threads and I am not really sure if I got an answer or not.

I have access to a few acres of land in MA US.

Mostly it's oaks but there is some native holly red cypress and maples.
Few that have some great potential.

So first question - should I be patient and wait until spring to collect or do it in the fall?

If in the fall what is the best way to over winter?


The second and more confusing, to me, issue is how to determine the size of the root ball to dig up.
Most of the trees I've been looking at are fairly small with 1-2" trunk.

But there is a great Oak that went complete natural literati with a trunk that is about 3" and
a field maple that looks like had a large branch broken off and the nebari is probably 5-7" inches.

The size of the root ball depends on a lot of things. Species, location, collector's ability and experience, weather are a few.

If you've never collected anything fall is the worst time for collecting anything. As you note, you face an entire winter of no growth and freezing temps. Both can kill a newly-collected tree.

Spring before bud break on deciduous trees, is the optimal time to collect. It provides warming temperatures, sunshine and rain, all are good things for collected trees. and FWIW, you don't have red cypress or field maple growing on your property. More likely its Eastern red cedar and red maple (acer rubrum). There is no such thing as red cypress and field maple (Acer campestre) is native to Europe and not wild growing here in the U.S.

As for the root mass, well, it depends on the species. Most deciduous trees can take some punishment, some a lot. I don't bother to use a shovel to collect much of anything. I use a heavy pruning saw and saw trees out of the ground, severing all their roots about 6-8 inches out from the trunk and then leveraging the trunk to cut the tap roots. Then remove the top, leaving only about one to three feet of trunk to work with.

Oaks may be less forgiving of this treatment and larger examples can be a pain to collect. If you have one worth collecting, skip it for five years until you get some experience collecting trees in general. If you have to have an oak, dig the less attractive one NEXT to the one you really want. See if you can keep the uglier twin alive and well for a few years, then come back for the big 'un.

 

[Corwyn13]

The size of the root ball depends on a lot of things. Species, location, collector's ability and experience, weather are a few.

If you've never collected anything fall is the worst time for collecting anything. As you note, you face an entire winter of no growth and freezing temps. Both can kill a newly-collected tree.

Spring before bud break on deciduous trees, is the optimal time to collect. It provides warming temperatures, sunshine and rain, all are good things for collected trees. and FWIW, you don't have red cypress or field maple growing on your property. More likely its Eastern red cedar and red maple (acer rubrum). There is no such thing as red cypress and field maple (Acer campestre) is native to Europe and not wild growing here in the U.S.

As for the root mass, well, it depends on the species. Most deciduous trees can take some punishment, some a lot. I don't bother to use a shovel to collect much of anything. I use a heavy pruning saw and saw trees out of the ground, severing all their roots about 6-8 inches out from the trunk and then leveraging the trunk to cut the tap roots. Then remove the top, leaving only about one to three feet of trunk to work with.

Oaks may be less forgiving of this treatment and larger examples can be a pain to collect. If you have one worth collecting, skip it for five years until you get some experience collecting trees in general. If you have to have an oak, dig the less attractive one NEXT to the one you really want. See if you can keep the uglier twin alive and well for a few years, then come back for the big 'un.

sorry yes that was my typo I meant red cedar not cypress - definitely maple of some kind. There are A LOT of oaks that are much smaller that are worthy but this large one really pretty cool. Surprised on your comment on the oak, they are growing everywhere like weeds. Thought they would be hardy. The others are holly.

What you described is pretty much the plan I had for digging up the larger trees with the exception that I was going to use a shover to dig around it. Soil is very sandy.
Surprised on your comment on the oak, they are growing everywhere like weeds. Thought they would be super hardy.


Sounds like I should make my choices and wait until mid-march or so?

 

[rockm]

sorry yes that was my typo I meant red cedar not cypress - definitely maple of some kind. There are A LOT of oaks that are much smaller that are worthy but this large one really pretty cool. Surprised on your comment on the oak, they are growing everywhere like weeds. Thought they would be hardy. The others are holly.

What you described is pretty much the plan I had for digging up the larger trees with the exception that I was going to use a shover to dig around it. Soil is very sandy.
Surprised on your comment on the oak, they are growing everywhere like weeds. Thought they would be super hardy.


Sounds like I should make my choices and wait until mid-march or so?

Oaks are indeed hardy, but they also don't like to have their roots disturbed. BIG difference.

Most forest oaks have tap roots, big tap roots that require significant effort to get out of the ground. American holly is useless and punishing as bonsai. Long thorns on leaf ends will cut you, while its growth habits are loose and gangly looking as bonsai. Yaupon holly is an excellent U.S. native holly to use, but it's not native that far north.

If your soil is sandy, trees can bareroot themselves when you try to dig a sizeable root mass. You don't want field soil in the pot. It is a primary killer of newly collected deciduous bonsai...

You can dig them in the spring as soon as the ground thaws enough to allow it. However, you also have to provide a frost-free place for them once they're out of the ground. Optimally you wait for the buds to swell to juuust before opening before you collect. That allows the tree to maximize its root resources ahead of new growth. That optimal time can vary from species to species and location to location and from time of year. It takes active, experienced observation to get them at that stage.

 

[Cmd5235]

sorry yes that was my typo I meant red cedar not cypress - definitely maple of some kind. There are A LOT of oaks that are much smaller that are worthy but this large one really pretty cool. Surprised on your comment on the oak, they are growing everywhere like weeds. Thought they would be hardy. The others are holly.

What you described is pretty much the plan I had for digging up the larger trees with the exception that I was going to use a shover to dig around it. Soil is very sandy.
Surprised on your comment on the oak, they are growing everywhere like weeds. Thought they would be super hardy.


Sounds like I should make my choices and wait until mid-march or so?

I go out in the summer and fall with flagging tape- I have a bunch from wildland firefighting, but you can find it fairly cheap, and I mark trees for the following spring. That way I can get photos and species info ahead of time, evaluate them, and Goni it in the spring when the collection window is short and not have to spend time selecting trees- I can get right to digging

 

[gjones_42]

As for the root mass, well, it depends on the species. Most deciduous trees can take some punishment, some a lot. I don't bother to use a shovel to collect much of anything. I use a heavy pruning saw and saw trees out of the ground, severing all their roots about 6-8 inches out from the trunk and then leveraging the trunk to cut the tap roots. Then remove the top, leaving only about one to three feet of trunk to work with.

Reviving a not too old (but seemingly very relevant) thread here, can you expand a bit on the 1-3 feet of trunk you leave? Similar to the OP, I have quite a few small (ish) maples and oaks on my property in MA that I would've cut down at some point. Now that I'm going down this wonderful bonsai rabbit hole, I'm thinking some could be good candidates for bonsai, and no harm in experimenting with stock that would've been cut down anyways.

Since it's my property, I was thinking I don't need to dig up the roots right away, and can instead work on getting a good stump with some shoots coming out to work with. problem is the couple of candidates all have branches 5-10 feet up and nothing down below. Your 1-3 feet of trunk comment piqued my interest for this reason. Is there any benefit to digging the stump up if I can keep good access to it without doing so?

 

[BrianBay9]

When selecting trees to collect you're really only focusing on the bottom 12 to 18 inches. If the trunk doesn't have any interest there (cylinder with no movement) then you should move on to a different tree. For deciduous trees you don't necessarily need branches that low, since many species will bud back easily.

Chopping trees and leaving them in the forest doesn't always give you the result you want. If you're taking that approach I'd look for candidates in clearings, stream banks, fence rows.....more out in the open.

 

[gjones_42]

When selecting trees to collect you're really only focusing on the bottom 12 to 18 inches. If the trunk doesn't have any interest there (cylinder with no movement) then you should move on to a different tree. For deciduous trees you don't necessarily need branches that low, since many species will bud back easily.

Chopping trees and leaving them in the forest doesn't always give you the result you want. If you're taking that approach I'd look for candidates in clearings, stream banks, fence rows.....more out in the open.

One oak I have in mind has some interesting movement at the base, the others less so. I was thinking they could be some interesting starter trees given that a) I keep reading how I should expect to kill many trees early on and b) I was planning on cutting these down eventually. Maybe I learn some interesting things along the way.

So location-wise, it sounds like the dig up and pot aspect is to get them in a better location for robust growth. The ones that I have are at the edge of the yard where it turns to forest, so not bad for growth. I figured leaving the whole root system intact (which may be 5+ years old and expansive at this point) would be more beneficial than going from partial to full sun.

Maybe a good approach will be to chop them 2-3 feet off the ground this coming spring and see what happens. If they bud back, they're candidates for further tinkering, including digging them up. If not, no harm done.