Field Grown JBP progression, Help needed.

trigo

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This JBP was collected here in Brazil on the ending of our winter, 5 weeks ago, i started with slow realease fertilizer the day after collecting it and 1x per week foliar feeding fish and kelp fertilizer. It stayed 3 weeks on partial shade and the last 2 weeks it got full sun. It started to push new needles but dropped several old needles that dried, also some of the internal branches and needles dried and fell too. Does the tree looks healthy? This new growth means that im safe? how long till i know that the tree will survive collection? also there is a branch that appears to have needle cast or something, should i spray a systemic fungicide, daconil or copper?

5 Weeks 5.jpg5 Weeks 11.jpg5 Weeks 4.jpg5 Weeks 8.jpg5 Weeks 9.jpg5 Weeks 10.jpg5 Weeks 12.jpg
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Nice tree! It seems to be a really healthy tree over all.

The way the candles are pushing looks like like the tree might of taken a little bit of a hit when it was removed from the ground and potted, but overall nicely done.

I’m sure you know to be careful in the heat with slow release fertilizer.

You didn’t mention what you did to the roots…media, half bare rooted?

Yes, there is what looks like a bit of Dothistroma needle blight on those older browning needles. Nothing major, but it bears watching. Remove the browning and banded needles and dispose of these in the trash. Copper spray would be a good, fairly safe preventative. I use it every couple months on all my pines.

You might what to gently wire out the branches to help ventilation and get light in the interior to promote backbudding. Nothing rigorous, Just to lay out the branches. This will also give you a better handle on issues and allow penetration of your sprays.

btw: @Clicio is in your hemisphere and can be a great resource.

cheers
DSD sends
 

trigo

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Nice tree! It seems to be a really healthy tree over all.

The way the candles are pushing looks like like the tree might of taken a little bit of a hit when it was removed from the ground and potted, but overall nicely done.

I’m sure you know to be careful in the heat with slow release fertilizer.

You didn’t mention what you did to the roots…media, half bare rooted?

Yes, there is what looks like a bit of Dothistroma needle blight on those older browning needles. Nothing major, but it bears watching. Remove the browning and banded needles and dispose of these in the trash. Copper spray would be a good, fairly safe preventative. I use it every couple months on all my pines.

You might what to gently wire out the branches to help ventilation and get light in the interior to promote backbudding. Nothing rigorous, Just to lay out the branches. This will also give you a better handle on issues and allow penetration of your sprays.

btw: @Clicio is in your hemisphere and can be a great resource.

cheers
DSD sends
it was lifted from the field with all the roots i could get without bare rooting, but we have very heavy red clay soil over here, so alot of it fell apart, but i think i got a nice amount of roots and field soil. I poted it on a plastic washing up bowl that i drilled alot of holes, i used crushed tiles, perlite and pine bark. I will start spraying copper fungicide and alternate it weekly with daconil.

As for the fertilizer, i don't know... is it bad to use slow release fertilizer on hot days? we are currently ending our winter and entering spring, so most days stays at 25C max (77 F).
 

Deep Sea Diver

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it was lifted from the field with all the roots i could get without bare rooting, but we have very heavy red clay soil over here, so alot of it fell apart, but i think i got a nice amount of roots and field soil. I poted it on a plastic washing up bowl that i drilled alot of holes, i used crushed tiles, perlite and pine bark.
Sounds good!
I will start spraying copper fungicide and alternate it weekly with daconil.
That's an awful lot of spraying imho. Its not a big problem at this point and if you open up the tree to get good ventilation the issue should subside with periodic spraying, especially during the winter and rainy season. While, personally not a daconil fan. See this as my rationale. But many others use it. Your tree, your choice.

As for the fertilizer, i don't know... is it bad to use slow release fertilizer on hot days? we are currently ending our winter and entering spring, so most days stays at 25C max (77 F).
This is only an issue if the tree received a lot of fertilizer. I don't know your practices, so that was tossed in just in case.

Osmocote Plus (product I use often) and other slow release fertilizers release more product during higher temperatures. However, if you've not overfertilized the tree and water frequently and thoroughly during hot spells the tree should flourish. Older JBP's with good roots can handle some extra fertilizer.

cheers
DSD sends
 

jonf

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I don't want to dampen anyone's spirits, but that pine doesn't look like any JBP I've seen. Identifying what kind it is will help you know when to time training. The buds and candles look closer to my scots pines, but it could be something else.
 

River's Edge

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I would have to agree that the pine looks different from a regular JBP, when I look at the pictures it appears to be closer in appearance to a Japanese Red Pine with the trunk bark, needle twist and bud formation. There are many genetic variations possible, perhaps inquire more closely with the grower for the specific name of the cultivar.
Just as a general rule I would wait for new healthy growth before starting or continuing a fertilizer regime. I would also suggest removing any dead or diseased needles, buds and branchlets to reduce possible insects and pathogens issues.
Recently transplanted trees can take some time to show the overall effects and recover with new growth. Sometimes they charge ahead without skipping a beat, but not always so be patient.
 

Shibui

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I dug and potted black pines from my grow bed today. I shook off as much dirt as possible and scraped more out of a couple with matted roots. Field soil is not good in pots so I try to get rid of as much as possible without actually washing the roots.
Roots were then cut back to fit into the grow pots. I have not had problem with moderate root reduction on black pines here.

My pines do take longer to re-establish than deciduous trees. I won't be offering these trees for sale for around 6 months as it can take that long for the trees to show signs of grow or die.
Most trees will put out new shoots after transplant. That's a good sign but not proof of survival. Sometimes the trees are using stored food in a last ditch attempt to survive but until the new roots get going the new shoots can't be sustained.
Just maintain good care through summer. By mid summer you should have a good indication of success or otherwise.

I agree that that tree does not look right for JBP. JBP usually have white candles but this one appears to have thick red candles.
 

eugenev2

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This JBP was collected here in Brazil on the ending of our winter, 5 weeks ago, i started with slow realease fertilizer the day after collecting it and 1x per week foliar feeding fish and kelp fertilizer. It stayed 3 weeks on partial shade and the last 2 weeks it got full sun. It started to push new needles but dropped several old needles that dried, also some of the internal branches and needles dried and fell too. Does the tree looks healthy? This new growth means that im safe? how long till i know that the tree will survive collection? also there is a branch that appears to have needle cast or something, should i spray a systemic fungicide, daconil or copper?

View attachment 452040View attachment 452044View attachment 452039View attachment 452041View attachment 452042View attachment 452043View attachment 452045
Not a pine expert at all, but i agree with the other's comments that this doesn't look like a Japanese black pine, regardless i would attempt to determine the cultivar/species as the care and maintenance differ species to species. And different approaches are used for single flush pines in comparison to two flush pines.
A very simplified and generic article about pines can be found here https://www.bonsaiempire.com/tree-s...ese Black,conditions and short growth periods.
I found it a good reference point

The needles in the center mass could be dropping due to lack of sun (or purely old age), as from the pictures, the tree seems very bushy, but determine species first before reducing foliage.
 

trigo

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Sounds good!

That's an awful lot of spraying imho. Its not a big problem at this point and if you open up the tree to get good ventilation the issue should subside with periodic spraying, especially during the winter and rainy season. While, personally not a daconil fan. See this as my rationale. But many others use it. Your tree, your choice.


This is only an issue if the tree received a lot of fertilizer. I don't know your practices, so that was tossed in just in case.

Osmocote Plus (product I use often) and other slow release fertilizers release more product during higher temperatures. However, if you've not overfertilized the tree and water frequently and thoroughly during hot spells the tree should flourish. Older JBP's with good roots can handle some extra fertilizer.

cheers
DSD sends
I will keep in mind to not over spray, and thanks for the info on the osmocote.

I don't want to dampen anyone's spirits, but that pine doesn't look like any JBP I've seen. Identifying what kind it is will help you know when to time training. The buds and candles look closer to my scots pines, but it could be something else.
I would have to agree that the pine looks different from a regular JBP, when I look at the pictures it appears to be closer in appearance to a Japanese Red Pine with the trunk bark, needle twist and bud formation. There are many genetic variations possible, perhaps inquire more closely with the grower for the specific name of the cultivar.
Just as a general rule I would wait for new healthy growth before starting or continuing a fertilizer regime. I would also suggest removing any dead or diseased needles, buds and branchlets to reduce possible insects and pathogens issues.
Recently transplanted trees can take some time to show the overall effects and recover with new growth. Sometimes they charge ahead without skipping a beat, but not always so be patient.
Not a pine expert at all, but i agree with the other's comments that this doesn't look like a Japanese black pine, regardless i would attempt to determine the cultivar/species as the care and maintenance differ species to species. And different approaches are used for single flush pines in comparison to two flush pines.
A very simplified and generic article about pines can be found here https://www.bonsaiempire.com/tree-species/pines#:~:text=Two flush pines: Japanese Black,conditions and short growth periods.
I found it a good reference point

The needles in the center mass could be dropping due to lack of sun (or purely old age), as from the pictures, the tree seems very bushy, but determine species first before reducing foliage.
It could be a different cultivar from the one propagated in other countries...

The grower is one of the most reputed ones around here and he assured me they were all Pinus Thunbergii (kuromatsu) he has several other JBP in his private collection. What i think happened is these trees (he has like 200 trees left on the field, (originally it was like 2000 that he dugged as time passed) are stained from the field soil, thus the red bark (i poked under it and it's greyish), our soil is particularly known to stain EVERYTHING red, all my other trees that were grown on the field has this redish tone, even the folliage, it stains everything and his JBP field even more so beign at the side of a corn field. This together with some neglect over the years it's been on the field, i think gave this impression, there are long needles and short needles all over the tree, indicating it was not fed regurarly over the years. But well he can be wrong, i can take more detailed pictures, what would you like to see to better identify?

The twisted needles were not this way when i lifted the tree... 2 weeks after beign collected, some needles curled and twisted and i think that is maybe a stress response.

These are some pines in his private collection that he told me were from the same seed supplier as the one i bought, so you can see the difference from beign in the field over the years.

20220706_163006.jpgIMG_2793.JPEGIMG_4401.JPEGIMG_4403.JPEG

And here some pictures of the field:
IMG_4370.JPEGIMG_4373.JPEGIMG_4380.JPEGIMG_4381.JPEGIMG_4391.JPEG

And my tree before beign dug out:
IMG-20220713-WA0029.jpgIMG-20220713-WA0021.jpgJBP remoção.jpg
 

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trigo

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I dug and potted black pines from my grow bed today. I shook off as much dirt as possible and scraped more out of a couple with matted roots. Field soil is not good in pots so I try to get rid of as much as possible without actually washing the roots.
Roots were then cut back to fit into the grow pots. I have not had problem with moderate root reduction on black pines here.

My pines do take longer to re-establish than deciduous trees. I won't be offering these trees for sale for around 6 months as it can take that long for the trees to show signs of grow or die.
Most trees will put out new shoots after transplant. That's a good sign but not proof of survival. Sometimes the trees are using stored food in a last ditch attempt to survive but until the new roots get going the new shoots can't be sustained.
Just maintain good care through summer. By mid summer you should have a good indication of success or otherwise.

I agree that that tree does not look right for JBP. JBP usually have white candles but this one appears to have thick red candles.
I wish i did what you said, the field soil here is very heavy clay, but now i will have to deal with what i got, i tried to save as much feeder roots as i could. but of the overall pot i estimate that it has maybe 30% field soil the other 70% is my mix, so not that bad.

as for the white candles i gave on the previous post some explanation that may explain what is happening.
 

Shibui

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We have also seen examples of seed grown JBP that don't appear true to type.
It appears that JBP and JRP hybridize easily where they grow near. Naturally the 2 species grow in different areas with just a very small overlap but now that trees are planted in gardens there is more places where 2 species are close so if seed is collected from garden trees there's a higher likelihood of hybrid seedlings.

My best guess is your tree is one of those accidental hybrids but it will be interesting to see if it retains those characteristics or if you are correct about the color and needles being temporary due to soil type.
That won't make your tree any less for bonsai if it does turn out to be a cross. It may even be stronger due to hybrid vigour of first cross.
 

trigo

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We have also seen examples of seed grown JBP that don't appear true to type.
It appears that JBP and JRP hybridize easily where they grow near. Naturally the 2 species grow in different areas with just a very small overlap but now that trees are planted in gardens there is more places where 2 species are close so if seed is collected from garden trees there's a higher likelihood of hybrid seedlings.

My best guess is your tree is one of those accidental hybrids but it will be interesting to see if it retains those characteristics or if you are correct about the color and needles being temporary due to soil type.
That won't make your tree any less for bonsai if it does turn out to be a cross. It may even be stronger due to hybrid vigour of first cross.
If this is the case, i think it would be really nice to have something this different. But I've been told that Red pines, and other colder climate types of pines don't handle our climate well, we basically never get freezing temperatures or snow, and have really hot summers.
 

Maiden69

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If this is the case, i think it would be really nice to have something this different. But I've been told that Red pines, and other colder climate types of pines don't handle our climate well, we basically never get freezing temperatures or snow, and have really hot summers.
The fact that those trees were grow in your climate for several years may indicate that you don't need to worry too much about it. You do need to have more consideration because it is in a pot now, rather than in the ground, but the tree should be fine for your weather.
 

trigo

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The fact that those trees were grow in your climate for several years may indicate that you don't need to worry too much about it. You do need to have more consideration because it is in a pot now, rather than in the ground, but the tree should be fine for your weather.
will keep watching it and wait to see what happens.

@Shibui @eugenev2 @River's Edge @jonf @Deep Sea Diver
i took some closer pictures of "cleaner" buds. Maybe it could help better identify?
bud 1.jpgbud 2.jpg
 

Deep Sea Diver

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My bet, if I could register one is just a different cultivar of Japanese Black Pine with sporatic fertilization.

This is what folks are talking about. These are overfertilized pine showing candles opening up.

Note the color, coarseness, and layout of the needles.

Japanese Black Pine. Japanese Red Pine

image.jpg image.jpg
btw It looks to me that needle fungus is also apparent on a few of these needles. It starts with and spot, becoming a band around the needle.

cheers
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River's Edge

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will keep watching it and wait to see what happens.

@Shibui @eugenev2 @River's Edge @jonf @Deep Sea Diver
i took some closer pictures of "cleaner" buds. Maybe it could help better identify?
View attachment 452176View attachment 452177
A couple of thoughts.
The clearer pictures help. they are within the variation of appearance when I look at my JBP when looking strictly at the bud formation. The presence of the white aspect is less than usual but it is present. Typically with my JRP the white fuzz is not present. I just took a short tour of the several hundred JBP I have under propagation and compared them with the thirty JRP that I have growing out. They were also started from seed, reputable supplier. The discussion of cultivar is not a clear starting point if one is talking about propagation by seed. Seed sources can vary within the same supplier, distributor and collection of seed can involve hybridization of nearby species.
I would assume your grower is correct. The needles show lighter green and more twist than my JBP but that could simply be variation in climate, care, fertilizer or again some degree of hybridization. The buds are not consistent with my JRP or Scots Pine.
Hope that helps. Comments based on the sample below.
 

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eugenev2

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will keep watching it and wait to see what happens.

@Shibui @eugenev2 @River's Edge @jonf @Deep Sea Diver
i took some closer pictures of "cleaner" buds. Maybe it could help better identify?
View attachment 452176View attachment 452177
I feel like your stressing about this a bit, just relax and let the tree settle into it's new environment, the main focus at the moment should be to getting the tree healthy and acclimated to container environment (people normally suggest to not work on the tree for about a year after collection). You can use this time to watch it and see whether the new growth is the same colour as the old or where it came from some sort of soil discoloration as you mentioned. But you can use this time to do some research on Japanese black pines as well as other types of varieties if you are still unsure about it. Take the growers advice that it is a Japanese black pine, but also do some research yourself, especially if the grower grows other varieties as Shibui suggested. One variety of hybrid you can have a look at is Pinus × densi thunbergii 'Jane Kluis' it looks suspiciously similar (from the photos you shared). This variety has many of the Japanese black pine characteristics, like two flush, and generally has the same maintenance requirements. People here are generally helpful and have a wealth of knowledge, but sometimes it can be a bit overwhelming when you start out, also they can't see the whole picture of the tree (not meant literally here) and don't always know the intricacies of your climate, so if for anything else contact the grower for advice on care for the tree, as they seem to have kept it health for a number of years until you figure out everything for yourself
 

trigo

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Thanks guys, i talked with some other people from the local bonsai club and they assured me it's JBP, those differences must really be some other type of cultivar that was spread here in brazil + irregular fertilization and care. I sprayed copper fungicide, now let's wait and see, mid summer i will post an update on this tree, if the copper fungicide doesn't work i have a systemic that i use on my soy farm, it should work.
 

trigo

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Following up with an update... Things seems to be progressing ok, spring has come and with it higher temperatures and rain. After producing several pollen cones, new needles are starting to grow.

I noticed there are some some branches with white spots on the bark, that appears to be dried sap, is this normal?


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