Finding a Live Vein

[berobinson82]

Is there a trick to finding live veins? When I watch professionals add shari to junipers specifically it almost looks like they are placing it artistically rather than according to the biology of the tree. But I'm certain they know something I don't. My google search yielded some information but mostly led to my looking at hundreds of varicose veins. During my lunch break...


Any links or suggestions are, as always, most appreciated.
-B

 

[Poink88]

Is there a trick to finding live veins? When I watch professionals add shari to junipers specifically it almost looks like they are placing it artistically rather than according to the biology of the tree. But I'm certain they know something I don't.

Are you asking about finding or positioning?

If it is the latter, note that you can "guide" the flow across the original flow but only to some extent. How much depends on each species. Imagine it like a highway where you have to merge from one lane to the other...the tree will adapt.

Then just marry that "limitation" with the artistic part in execution.

 

[nathanbs]

on a mature tree you can usually trace a live vein from a thick branch down the trunk or from a thick root up the trunk. There is often a somewhat clear bulging that can be differentiated from the rest of the trunk. Assuming that it is a juniper, make sure you peel off the old loose bark first so you can better see the true trunk. In some cases it is just a matter of experience when in doubt. If you are not sure you can always begin at the logical starting point just below a dead branch or a recently jinned branch and pull a thin stand of living tissue. It will pull along the grain of the vein that you are choosing to "kill", widen it slowly and carefully. Better to be safe than sorry. You can always go back and widen more a year later once the tree clearly isolates it, it will recede while the remaining living veins will bulge.

 

[jk_lewis]

The key words in the last post were "In a mature tree" . . . .

Immature plants like you get from a nursery simply do not have visibly distinct "veins." If you create shari with one of them, you ARE pretty much doing it artistically.

And don't ask how mature is "mature." You know it when you see it. Period.

 

[Attila Soos]

Old trees have a visible bulge where the sap flows through.
But, as JKL said, younger trees have no such thing, so you have to create those live veins yourself.
It's a tricky business...

This year, I dug out four shohin shimpaku junipers from my backyard, and planted them in training pots. I also created artificial shari in a spiraling fashion, along their trunks. Two survived, but two died. I have many more in the ground, so the loss is not very bad.

But this was a good lesson, and a humbling one, since it's been a long while since I killed my last tree, and I began thinking that I can do no wrong. Apparently, there is a lot to learn, even after 18 years of bonsai.

The lessons:

1) Do not strip too much live bark of freshly dug trees. Preferably wait a year, before you do any shari work.

2) When you do strip off live bark, start with a very thin one, so that the tree has a chance to re-direct the flow of sap throughout the season. Then, you can enlarge the shari during the next season.

The safest thing to do actually, is to use bonsai wire around the trunk, let the wire cut deep into it during the next couple of years, and then strip the bark along the mark, after removing the wire. When you do this, the tree is already forming a live vein in the areas where there is no wire.

 

[berobinson82]

The key words in the last post were "In a mature tree" . . . .

Immature plants like you get from a nursery simply do not have visibly distinct "veins." If you create shari with one of them, you ARE pretty much doing it artistically.

And don't ask how mature is "mature." You know it when you see it. Period.

Excellent. So then, immature trees don't have veins but rather utilize the entirety of the circumference of the trunk?

I recall seeing someone put oval notches in a juniper's trunk to begin moving sap flow around what would become a shari. Can't find the source for the life of me. I've also seen people seemingly put a chalk line where they thought it would help make the tree appear as if it had taper without so much as considering the veins.

Is adding shari on an immature juniper, without considering the live veins, an acceptable practice?

 

[berobinson82]

It's a tricky one.

This year, I dug out four shohin shimpaku junipers from my backyard, and planted them in training pots. I also created artificial shari in a spiraling fashion, along their trunks. Two survived, but two died.

This was a good lesson, and a humbling one, since it's been a long while since I killed my last tree, and I began thinking that I can do no wrong. Apparently, there is a lot to learn, even after 18 years of bonsai.

The lessons:

1) Do not strip too much live bark of freshly dug trees. Preferably wait a year, before you do any shari work.

2) When you do strip off live bark, start with a very thin one, so that the tree has a chance to re-direct the flow of sap throughout the next season. Then, you can enlarge the shari during the next season.

As JKL said, these were young trees, and young trees don't have visible live veins, since the whole trunk has live bark.

We must have been typing at the same time. I do thank you for these lessons as they are very clear. BTW, have you shown those spiraled shimps?

 

[jk_lewis]

Is adding shari on an immature juniper, without considering the live veins, an acceptable practice?

Not by me. Risky, at best -- as Attila notes.

 

[Attila Soos]

BTW, have you shown those spiraled shimps?

Not much to show, these are trunks as thick as my index finger, and there have no styling whatsoever. I am just trying to create some movement in the trunk by removing a strip of bark. Then I intend to plant them back into the ground for another 3 or 4 years, before they are dug out again, and ready for some basic styling.

 

[Attila Soos]

Not by me. Risky, at best -- as Attila notes.

It's worth noting though, that the larger the trunk, the safer it is, to create shari. When you work on a thin trunk, removing a strip of bark constitutes a relatively large portion of that trunk. But when you have large trunk, several inches in diameter, then it is much safer to remove a thin strip of bark, and then enlarge it later. Also, as the trunk matures, and it starts showing bulges of live vein, then you can see where to strip and where not to strip.

 

[nathanbs]

be careful to not make it look too artificial, stay away from the perfectly symmetrical candycane or barber pole look

 

[berobinson82]

be careful to not make it look too artificial, stay away from the perfectly symmetrical candycane or barber pole look

I can barely color inside the lines. Symmetry and perfection are it going to be an issue! I have two junipers that are asking for Shari. One older than the other. One will need more time it seems.

I imagine poking around the edge of the vein with a grafting knife to see what is live and dead is the way to find the line then?

Thanks again for the input.

 

[nathanbs]

Not exactly. The entire trunk of your tree is likely living unless you see some obviously dead wood on it. It will be obvious because it will likely lack any bark and should be a different color. Sometimes the color all blends together when it is dirty and moldy. But it will be obvious nonetheless. Design your tree first. Jin(dead wood on branch) any branches that are not needed in the foliage design and then start pulling(could mean literally pulling fibers or just drawing) your shari(dead wood on trunk)down off of maybe one of the largest jins that you created. If the tree doesn't seem to have a naturally twisting vein system then you can be a large influence to making it more interesting. It generally tapers(gets skinnier) as it travels down from a branch jin or tapers up if it comes from a root jin. In addition it helps to pick the front of the tree so that when you are influencing the path of the shari you will be able to select a path where you can see both living and dead wood at almost all times when viewing the trunk from the front. It is also nicer when there are several shari lines as opposed to just one. If you are going to do the corkscrew than the best way is to do it with wire and then plant back in the ground and the let the wire do the work. One shari line is fine with a corkscrew. Generally a corkscrew shari only looks appropriate on a trunk that is corkscrewing as well. Sorry a lot of info. Feel free to ask for further clarification

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

The "ovals" thread is here...need to update it!
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?4389-Shimpaku-Project