Finished bonsai - Nothing to do?

[music~maker]

Interesting thread. Thanks for posting that video, Adair! I really enjoy watching someone as masterful as Bjorn do his thing.

Here’s my 2 cents on a few of the comments that jumped out at me.

IDK, for me personally, I'm just starting out in this little world of Bonsai at 40 years old lol. That being said, I want most of my trees to either be finished or at the very least have some decent age and training on them so that care and upkeep take up most of my time. I want to enjoy them in their more complete phases of beauty because I know that I most likely don't have enough time in my life left to create anything from seed and be able to raise it to the point of a ripe old age.

abqjoe - It doesn’t have to be from seed to start at an early stage. Find some seedlings, get some nursery stock, whatever. Even if you mostly want finished trees, there is a lot you can learn from taking some early stage trees as far as you can. I have trees at a wide variety of stages, everything from saplings all the way up to refined trees, and I learn something from all of them. Growing trunks has taught me a lot about growing branches, and growing branches has taught me a lot about growing trunks.

When I do this kind of thinning and adjusting to my trees I don't consider it as doing art.

MichaelS - Here’s something to consider. When you thin and adjust, you have lots of little choices to make. It’s not like someone hands you the instructions and says “here, create this” as if it were a set of legos. I would argue strongly that the collection of choices you make while thinning and adjusting IS the art. Adam Lavigne recently finished a blog entry with this quote: “Horticulture is science. The practice of horticulture is an art.” Couldn’t agree more.

All of the tools we have in our toolbox - wiring, bending, pruning, etc. are just that - tools. Every technique you apply leaves its mark on the tree, whether a small mark or a big mark. Collectively, those marks add up and become your artistic impression on that tree. If you could somehow carbon-copy the tree that Bjorn started with and create a dozen copies, and give each one to a prominent bonsai master, you would get a dozen different trees at the end, even if they were technically applying the same techniques. A tree like this has hundreds of little choices that get made during the styling, and those little choices are reflected in the character of the final tree. Not sure how that is anything BUT art, honestly.

I have a few trees now that take me a solid day of work to wire properly. There’s lots of technical things I do when I work on them, but I’m still making tons of little choices that impact how the tree will develop for the entire rest of the season, and in many cases, the entire rest of its life. I know for sure that if I handed the same tree over to somebody else that they’d do something else. There are just so many ways to skin a cat, and lots of them yield decent results. The way I see it, every pieces of wire applied and every cut you make is an artistic choice. The comment someone made about this video being 95% technique and 5% art is, well, really funny to me.

I could make a strong case that even the TIMING of when you do certain techniques is part of the art. For example, I have a japanese maple I’m working on right now that I’ve been waiting to prune because I wanted this season’s growth to leave it’s mark on the trunk first. I just checked it yesterday afternoon, and it’s just about there. I could have easily pruned it 3-4 weeks ago, and many people would have. But then it wouldn’t have looked the same as it does now. That was a conscious decision on my part, as will be the conscious decision to shorten the strongest growing branches by a few nodes to apply the brakes and maintain my trunk proportions. Sometimes I'll prune a few branches and leave others to run for similar reasons. These are all artistic choices.

Which brings us to the bottom line. Why the "stoop to buying," "I am better because I DO IT MYSELF" silliness? The idea that a bonsai has to belong to its original "owner" it's entire life is curiously western and mostly childish. If you've got any talent or ability, "your" trees will outlive you.

Could not agree more, rockm. When we buy a trunk, we’re just buying a canvas that’s further along than one we either could have or wanted to create ourself. It’s what you do with it after you acquire it that matters. I grow a lot of my stuff from early stages, but when I buy things at more mature stages, it's so I can have the experience of working later stage material than what I currently have. I don't show my trees either, so I also find the idea of buying trees to collect accolades on somebody else's work pretty laughable. I just see interesting trunks that I can develop further.

If I work that material "my way" for five years vs. letting someone else work on it, at the end of five years it will unquestionably have my signature on it. Five year's worth of pruning and wiring decisions makes it unmistakably my tree. And when someone eventually takes over my trees, they'll receive a bunch of developed canvases to paint on and add their own layer of style to. It's just the nature of the game.

 

[chansen]

Well, MichaelS, I have to disagree with you a bit here.

I enjoyed watching Bjorn wire. Even speeded up. I saw him doing something differently than I do, and while I don't know if I will try it or not, it was interesting. At least to me!

It was how he was wiring the major lower branches. I've been taught to set the anchor, wire one branch 1 1/2 to 2 turns, then wire the other branch to the end, or however far I'm taking that piece of wire. When complete, go back to the first branch and finish it.

Well, Bjorn did it a little differently. He started with an anchor, then did the first branch 1 1/2 to 2 turns and then wired the 2nd branch. But he didn't go back to finish the first branch. He left the wire hanging out. He then did something similiar with another wire. Now two wires hanging! He concentrated on completing what I'm calling the second branch. Then, once he was done wiring the entire branch and pad, he then shifted over to the loose wires, finished applying those and others to finish that branch.

Doing it this way allowed him to concentrate completing one branch at a time. Rather than jumping back and forth as much as the way I would have.

I've never done it that way. Would it be better if I did? I don't know. I might try it to see if it works for me. I like the idea of being able to focus all my attention to one area, knowing I will go back and complete the wiring on the "loose ends" later.

Picking up on this nuance shows that you have enough experience to realize that very subtle differences in technique can lead to different (and sometimes significant) results. Someone that hasn't wired a ton of trees will not have noticed, or cared.

 

[Anthony]

@ jonawa ,

I am not sure how anyone can come to this forum and not get information for free.

For wiring, go to Stone Lantern on-line and ask for about the two articles they had on wiring, which issues, and either
buy from them or see if Amazon has them.
[ remember to train on branches cut from normal big trees in nature ]

In fact many of the facts can be had from Stone Lantern's Bonsai Today.

The Bjorn Videos were helpful, with back of tree views and the density you can expect from say - Shimpaku.

Words of Caution -
I would be cautious with any of the ART stuff as I don't know how many Japanese Masters have studied Design.
Seems to be a continuous situation of learning by ROTE.
Change can be very slow and go backwards very quickly.
Please note I have spent time taking Art Critique classes on European Oil Paintings, mostly Renaissance and Baroque
with some Rocco and Pre-Raphaelite. Also basic Chinese Classical Ink painting.
____________________________________________________________________
BE Cautious of me - I am somewhat European Biased in thinking and 1/2 Chinese by birth.
I am also immune to Oriental hype --------- they do put on their pants a leg at a time.
___________________________________________________________________

Over the years I have noted some sort of resistance to studying Design in a school type atmosphere with regards to Bonsai
and a lot of hype - talk about Bonsai as an Art form.
This may be an off shoot of Abstract Art and requires more mouth than real ability to Design.

LESS IS MORE ------------ BUT YOU PAY MORE.
[ less mental effort, but higher charges for B.S talk ]

Wishing you well.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[MichaelS]

"music~maker,

MichaelS - Here’s something to consider. When you thin and adjust, you have lots of little choices to make. It’s not like someone hands you the instructions and says “here, create this” as if it were a set of legos. I would argue strongly that the collection of choices you make while thinning and adjusting IS the art. Adam Lavigne recently finished a blog entry with this quote: “Horticulture is science. The practice of horticulture is an art.” Couldn’t agree more.

All of the tools we have in our toolbox - wiring, bending, pruning, etc. are just that - tools. Every technique you apply leaves its mark on the tree, whether a small mark or a big mark. Collectively, those marks add up and become your artistic impression on that tree. If you could somehow carbon-copy the tree that Bjorn started with and create a dozen copies, and give each one to a prominent bonsai master, you would get a dozen different trees at the end, even if they were technically applying the same techniques. A tree like this has hundreds of little choices that get made during the styling, and those little choices are reflected in the character of the final tree. Not sure how that is anything BUT art, honestly.

I have a few trees now that take me a solid day of work to wire properly. There’s lots of technical things I do when I work on them, but I’m still making tons of little choices that impact how the tree will develop for the entire rest of the season, and in many cases, the entire rest of its life. I know for sure that if I handed the same tree over to somebody else that they’d do something else. There are just so many ways to skin a cat, and lots of them yield decent results. The way I see it, every pieces of wire applied and every cut you make is an artistic choice

Hi music maker,

I see things a little differently. All those tiny decisions about wiring clipping etc. you mentioned, I would argue, are not as variable as you may think. In a tree such as this (Bjorn's juniper) in which the style and form have been pre-determined and well established for a long period of time, The decisions about what to remove, what to leave, and what to move are quite rigid. In fact I would say the decisions are pretty more or less already set in stone. Yes there may be very subtle variations, (but VERY subtle and of no real artistic consequence in the grand scheme of things) but I believe that if for example many different workers were to have their way with this tree, the vast majority would end up with the same overall result. Why do I say this?

The main reason is that the modern bonsai community and it's methodology is at the moment very insular. In other words, everyone (probably including you and I) is simply making copies of trees which we have been exposed to and which appeal to us.
They appeal to us because firstly, we have been told that they should, because they tend to attract the most attention, because they win prizes in Japanese exhibitions, because they are the flavour of the month etc. etc.

Being trained in Japan can only reinforce such a view. There tends to be a strong emphasis on tradition there. No problem with that of course, except that it supresses creativity. I have observed many ''artists'' from Japan work on many different trees. The overall outcome of the work or the instruction is geared toward producing more of the same. More of the image of Bjorn's juniper. Of course if that is what you want then that is what you should do! Personally, I don't want that anymore. I don't want to make yet another tree in the same image. I look to a more freeform, abstract yet still natural appearing image. If you look at the needle juniper on my other post, you will notice that yet again, the same image as a million others was made. I no longer want to shape trees like this. I find them tedious and a bit boring now. Those that are already set in this form will stay as such and get refined but with new material, I will actively try to avoid doing the same thing. Whether I succeed is another matter!
There was a time when I considered going to Japan for training. It would have saved me years of trail and (mostly) error. Now however I am rather happy that I did not! Crazy as that sounds....

So to sum up, no I don't consider the Bjorn (and many other's) work to be creative at all. (And please let me again make the point that I do not consider him or any other person uncreative. I have no idea about that. Just talking about this type of work) To me it is just pre-determined work to achieve a pre-determined end. You could compare it to say - very complicated basket weaving. Yes the first one, the first design, is creative, artistic, all subsequent copies are just technical crafting using the same techniques over and over. It then becomes a monkey see monkey do scenario. Of course it's all necessary, but to me, not creative and nothing to do with art. I could of course be completely wrong, but none has convinced me yet.

 

[MichaelS]

You may not realize it now but watching videos of this level will improve your bonsai far more than complaining about how little videos like this can help.

This is your big mistake Vance. They will NOT improve your bonsai. The only way to improve your bonsai - the actual tree image, the shape and feel of the tree, the individuality, the uniqueness, the inspiration is to find what is hiding inside your head and let it come out. These vids will improve your technique - if they are at normal speed - maybe. They tell you how to hold the hammer and chisel but not what to do with them.

 

[MichaelS]

"Anthony,

Seriously, you didn't grow it, you don't maintain it, but you want recognition????????????????????????????

Man I know this bloke! The buyer has never made a tree in his life. Just buys all the good stuff. Pays whatever it takes to get his hands on it. Tweeks here and there AND...........DOES get the recognition! Figure that out!!
I don't care anymore. To self destructive. Just do your thing!

 

[Adair M]

So, Michael, your video of Kenichi Abe doing the first styling of that pine... Give it a couple years, and it's grown out a bit. Kenichi comes back to it and touches up a few things. Is he no longer being creative? No longer doing Art?

Does only the first styling qualify as "Art"?

In reality, I'm sure his were not the first hands on that pine. I bet it had been styled before, roughly, and been left to grow into the design. Let's say it had been. What that pre-first styling the "real Art" and the work that Kenichi did "just maintenance"? Or maybe that unknown artist had the vision to put the curves in the trunk 20 years ago, but it required twenty years of growing to achieve that image?

Shoot, it's even likely that tree had been a fully refined tree at some time, and fell into neglect. And Kenichi brought it back. Is that Art? Or Maintenance?

Does it even matter what we call it?

Look, some people like working with raw or rough stock. Some like wiring on more refined trees. One should not be considered superior than the other. Both skills have value.

 

[MichaelS]

So, Michael, your video of Kenichi Abe doing the first styling of that pine... Give it a couple years, and it's grown out a bit. Kenichi comes back to it and touches up a few things. Is he no longer being creative? No longer doing Art?

Does only the first styling qualify as "Art"?

In reality, I'm sure his were not the first hands on that pine. I bet it had been styled before, roughly, and been left to grow into the design. Let's say it had been. What that pre-first styling the "real Art" and the work that Kenichi did "just maintenance"? Or maybe that unknown artist had the vision to put the curves in the trunk 20 years ago, but it required twenty years of growing to achieve that image?

Shoot, it's even likely that tree had been a fully refined tree at some time, and fell into neglect. And Kenichi brought it back. Is that Art? Or Maintenance?

Does it even matter what we call it?

Look, some people like working with raw or rough stock. Some like wiring on more refined trees. One should not be considered superior than the other. Both skills have value.

Actually, thinking a bit more about it, What Kechichi did is really just more of the same. It's not like it's unique....really. BUT, at this stage the decisions which can be made have a huge variability. Keeping or removing branches can set up the flavour of the tree forever. But from then on, there is no further change. Just enhancement or development of the original idea (in this case, original meaning ''first'' not ''unique'')
I wish I could find some examples of truly unique modern pieces - or even old ones? I will try.. I know they are out there. There are plenty of deciduous examples but not so many conifers.

 

[MichaelS]

What about these images. Could you restrain your self from ''refining''? rounding off ?, evening out? making sure every twig is in it's ''place''
I wonder. Real bonsai art lies in recognition, acceptance, appreciation and display of the imperfect not in repetition. Nature in other words. (Of course ugliness is also found in nature. We want to avoid that if possible) We have come to accept sterility and uniformity as the right or best way! Again just my opinion. By the way, this is an old concept in Japan that has been forgotten in many quarters.

 

[Adair M]

MichaelS,

If you want to turn this thread into a "Naturalistic vs Classical" bonsai discussion, take it somewhere else.

If like to keep this thread focused on what skills are needed to keep refined bonsai for the long term.

There are plenty of other threads to discuss Naturalistic styling.

 

[music~maker]

I see things a little differently. All those tiny decisions about wiring clipping etc. you mentioned, I would argue, are not as variable as you may think. In a tree such as this (Bjorn's juniper) in which the style and form have been pre-determined and well established for a long period of time, The decisions about what to remove, what to leave, and what to move are quite rigid. In fact I would say the decisions are pretty more or less already set in stone. Yes there may be very subtle variations, (but VERY subtle and of no real artistic consequence in the grand scheme of things) but I believe that if for example many different workers were to have their way with this tree, the vast majority would end up with the same overall result. Why do I say this?

The main reason is that the modern bonsai community and it's methodology is at the moment very insular. In other words, everyone (probably including you and I) is simply making copies of trees which we have been exposed to and which appeal to us.
They appeal to us because firstly, we have been told that they should, because they tend to attract the most attention, because they win prizes in Japanese exhibitions, because they are the flavour of the month etc. etc.

I don't know, man. To me, the difference between his final tree and the starting point isn't very subtle at all. It's significantly different, and very skillfully done. I don't think just anyone would be able to work that tree the way he did. I see a lot of subtle artistic choices in there that could have been done differently, and with those choices comes creative decision-making.

But there's an important detail you should know about me before we continue this conversation. I am largely self-taught, so hold significantly less dogma about, well, everything. I've been doing bonsai for a long time (20+ years), and have taken some classes and workshops along the way, and have read a lot, but most of how I do bonsai comes from years of experimentation. I look for inspiration in the trees I see around me, not from somebody's handed-down methodology. I'm pretty much the opposite of the typical bonsai person you just described. So there's that ...

I do understand that there are lots of people who make cookie-cutter trees, some even at very high skill levels. I'm not a huge fan of overly-manicured trees myself, and that's not what I tend to create, but I can appreciate the skill level involved in creating them. And to choose to make one that way, to my way of thinking, is an act of creative artistic expression in the same way that if I choose to make one a different way and follow a different methodology. Either way, just choosing a particular path is still an act of creative artistic expression. The techniques being used might even be pretty standardized, but you still need to choose when and where to apply them.

You may choose to think less of a particular methodology because you see it as more cookie cutter, or that it's too rigid for the amount of creative expression that you like to express in your trees, but that still doesn't mean there isn't significant creative choice being imposed upon that tree.

So here's an important question for you. How far back do you have to go into the development cycle before you get to the phase where what you are doing becomes art? Is it only art if I grow it from a seed or sapling, or is starting from nursery stock OK? What if I buy a really nice trunk with great nebari, but it doesn't have good branches yet? Does it need to start from a wild yamadori to be art? Or is it just a particular style that you're training it in that makes it art vs. another that is not? You see, to draw a line in the sand opens up a troubling can of worms, and that line is looking pretty arbitrary.

Just for fun, here's the dictionary definition of art:

"the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power."

Working a tree like Bjorn does here certainly requires skill and it definitely requires imagination. It's pretty challenging to create a tree that you don't or can't envision first. Bonsai is definitely a visual form, not unlike a sculpture, and the work he has produced here can clearly be appreciated for it's beauty. Perhaps you don't like this particular form, but that doesn't mean that I can't or don't, or that other people can't or don't. In the same way, you might not like Picasso or Dali, and see them as a complete waste of paint and canvas, but other people might (and do) see them as brilliant works. I think this is pretty much the dictionary definition of art.

We can agree to disagree if you like, but I think what you're really saying here is "I don't like this particular style of tree as much as a more naturalistic style of tree that is less constrained by rules and dogma." =)

 

[music~maker]

MichaelS,

If you want to turn this thread into a "Naturalistic vs Classical" bonsai discussion, take it somewhere else.

If like to keep this thread focused on what skills are needed to keep refined bonsai for the long term.

There are plenty of other threads to discuss Naturalistic styling.

We certainly did end up there, didn't we?

Ok, here's an actually relevant question for you:

When maintaining a "refined" tree, how many times throughout the season do you tend to work it, and what work do you do when?

- For example, one way could be to set the direction in the spring by shortening the strongest growth from last season (light pruning), and probably doing a full wiring, and then occasionally prune for balance maybe once or twice during the season if it needs it.
- Another way could be to let it grow strongly during the spring, and then work it hard once during the summer
- Or maybe just one hard prune across the whole tree in the spring, then actively trim growth all season long
- etc., etc.

I understand that your answer is probably somewhat species dependent, but just curious if you have a typical process that you follow.

 

[Adair M]

It's totally species dependant! And whether the tree is going to be shown any time soon.

Deciduous trees get cut back after the leaves have turned.

Fall/winter is a great time to prune and style conifers.

Music-maker, from your post, it appears to me that you like to do your cut backs in spring. I prefer to do them in late fall, prior to winter.

D trees get to grow out a bit in spring, then get cut back.

As a general practice, I avoid "pinching" new growth. The exception is a fully ramified Japanese maple. Those can be pinched as soon as it's possible to get to the central leader of the new shoots. This keeps internodes short.

Of course, JBP and JRP get decandled every summer.

My mature Kishu Juniper gets thinned once each summer.

Zelkova and tridents are allowed to grow, then cut back. Occasionally I defoliate.

Atlas Cedar, let grow, then cut back.

JWP, I will balance the spring candles, breaking back the strong ones to match the weak ones, and eliminating the excess candles if there are 3 or more at a tip.

Azalea: depends if I want to let it flower or not. If it's leggy, late winter is a great time to do a hard cut back. Of course, that means no flowers! But it builds ramification. Next best time is after it flowers. Cut back.

I have more JBP than any other. Easily half my collection is JBP. So, they follow the JBP annual cycle.

 

[MichaelS]

[=

"music~maker,

The techniques being used might even be pretty standardized, but you still need to choose when and where to apply them.

But the point is that IF you choose to bring a tree like that to a show and IF you choose to have it compete with all the others, you have absolutely NO choice when, where or what you do. You do what is EXPECTED. How on earth can that be considered art?

How far back do you have to go into the development cycle before you get to the phase where what you are doing becomes art?

When you are completely free create something and actually do it. When you are not restrained by convention. At that point you are doing art, the rest is just - well I've said it enough times. Do you really believe Bjorn consciously chose to do that work in that way and achieve that outcome? That decision was made by outside forces. We are all slaves to convention to some point. All I'm saying is it's good to be aware of that.

You see, to draw a line in the sand opens up a troubling can of worms, and that line is looking pretty arbitrary.

Yes it can seem a bit nebulous, but the more you think about it the more clear it becomes. Personally, the more I think about it the less I believe art is being performed by the majority of bonsai people. And of course that incudes me.
Some people don't even want to think about it and that's perfectly fine.

Just for fun, here's the dictionary definition of art:

"the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power."

That's the problem with definitions of art. Talk about nebulous! But anyway, take the first part. Where is the imagination in doing what has been done before? It's skill AND imagination. Not skill OR imagination.

Working a tree like Bjorn does here certainly requires skill and it definitely requires imagination.

No! You don't need to imagine something you have already done.

Perhaps you don't like this particular form, but that doesn't mean that I can't or don't, or that other people can't or don't.

Absolutely agree. And I DO like these forms if done well. Hell, most of my trees have this conventional form, but I don't consider them to be pieces of art (like I used to) and I prefer something else.

Thanks music maker for taking the trouble to reply. It's been fun! I think we had better stop now because the thread is drifting away from Adair's initial message.
But it's his fault because he used the word artist. (just kidding )

 

[MichaelS]

Adair M,

If like to keep this thread focused on what skills are needed to keep refined bonsai for the long term.

Sure I can do that!

1/ Learn how to wire correctly. The best way to learn wiring is with your hands. (not watching others do it)
The hand you support the wire with is probably more important than the hand which does the winding.

2/ Learn how to differentiate between strong and weak areas and always balance them for long term improvement and development.

3/ Always leave shoots or buds further down the branch to replace what is in front of them because sooner or later you will need to shorten.

4/ Sharpen your horticultural skills. Eg. depending on the species, there will come a time when no work at all should be done for a year or more to allow the
tree to continue holding it's vigour, without which you can never hope for a long term refined tree.

5/ Know the peculiarities of your particular tree species and what it likes/dislikes.

6/ Periodically clean the bark and twigs and remove old needles to encourage existing buds and potential back budding. Learn to love tweezers. Learn how to pull off leaves without tearing bark.

8/ Always allow for transmission of light to reach all areas of the tree. Thinning is vital.

9/ Learn how to graft.

10/ The more refined and dense a tree becomes, the more likely you will find pests invading it. Be ready.

11/ When working on the tree, do not rush to finish the work. After a couple of hours your concentration starts to wane. Wiring becomes sloppy and mistakes are made. Leave it until later.

12/ Learn how to manage broken branches. Repair them, use them, or remove them. keep an open mind.

13/ Don't forget the container. Study which will best compliment the tree rather that overpower it. (even if you can't afford the right pot at the moment) (me!)

14/ Take plenty of photos so you can see if you are making the correct decisions to achieve what you want.

15/ Learn how to plant moss or dress the soil surface correctly when taking pic or exhibiting. It's surprizing how many don't know how or bother.

16/ Look at as many other refined trees as you can for on going inspiration. You can get bored with any tree!

17/ Don't overwork a tree to the point where it suffers physically.

18/ Don't overwork a tree to the point where it suffers visually.

19/........................

20/.........

21/..........

22/..........

 

[Vance Wood]

You sure know a lot of stuff but you remind me of the ASNF club ( all smoke no fire) we instituted many years ago. No one elsa will ask you but I will; I know you have the ability to post videos on the net so you should not be able to claim you cannot post photos. SO....what about it? Show us some of your trees, one of your trees do you have any trees? Great claims demand great evidences. Personally I don't care a whole lot except I hate to see someone get away with the same BS they claim to resist.

 

[Dav4]

You sure know a lot of stuff but you remind me of the ASNF club ( all smoke no fire) we instituted many years ago. No one elsa will ask you but I will; I know you have the ability to post videos on the net so you should not be able to claim you cannot post photos. SO....what about it? Show us some of your trees, one of your trees do you have any trees? Great claims demand great evidences. Personally I don't care a whole lot except I hate to see someone get away with the same BS they claim to resist.

Vance, go check out some of the threads Michael has here at Bnut... you've actually commented in a few of them. ASNF definitely does NOT apply here.

 

[sorce]

Furrrrrrrrrnt!

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

I don't think we are talking about the same Michael, that's the problem with psuedonymns. I cannot find the other Michael at the moment, but that Michael has been posting around here for a couple of years. This Michael has onlu 203 messages posted.

 

[Dav4]

I don't think we are talking about the same Michael, that's the problem with psuedonymns. I cannot find the other Michael at the moment, but that Michael has been posting around here for a couple of years. This Michael has onlu 203 messages posted.

We aren't Vance....http://www.bonsainut.com/search/member?user_id=19638&content=thread
...from the profile page of member MischaelS with 203 messages...