Fir? also, how do we really decided which type of trees for Bonsai?-some Thoughts

[yenling83]

I spent a lot of time up in the sierras last year. Besides from Sierra Juniper and Ponderosa Pine, I also really love White Fir. All three of these trees remind me of being up in the sierras.

I'm wondering why White Fir (Abies concolor) is not more commonly used in the U.S. for Bonsai? I also think several of these points relate to U.S. natives which are not commonly used or accepted as good choices for Bonsai.

Here are the reasons I think they are not used:
*Look like Christmas Trees when they are young
*Possibly live too short of a life span
*Not native to Japan(maybe they are I don't know)
*Don't have a Japanese feel to them
*Generally don't see Fir growing in the pockets of rock(like juniper and ponderosa) making naturally dwarfed Fir with a good shallow root system difficult to collect.
*Nobody has taken the plunge and created a really nice one(at least that I know of) for others to see and admire
*In order to create a really good one it would likely have to be collected or grown from a seedling cutting for many many years

I'm curious to hear what you think? Personally, I'd like to experiment a bit with white fir. I really love them and think a really nice one could be created with enough time and knowledge.

Bark of White Fir

 

[Smoke]

Sometimes you just have to think about things. Why do redwoods only grow in special places along the Cal. coast? Why does manzinita only grow at about 3000 feet?

Why do Stika spruce only grow in Northern Oregon and Wasington state? Most of these species are bound to climates that must be replicated for survival. Redwoods grow like weeds here in the ground, but die after about two years in pots. Spruce , forget about it.

Your picture above shows a forest of trees in the mountains. Do you live in the mountains? If you wish to grow it where it does not naturally grow, it may not thrive and so it has never passed muster as a confident bonsai subject.

There are those that wish to try all the time. Bonsai in the USA has been done for over 60 years now, most species suitable for bonsa have been vetted by now. You have to go for it and see what happens......

 

[yenling83]

Sometimes you just have to think about things. Why do redwoods only grow in special places along the Cal. coast? Why does manzinita only grow at about 3000 feet?

Why do Stika spruce only grow in Northern Oregon and Wasington state? Most of these species are bound to climates that must be replicated for survival. Redwoods grow like weeds here in the ground, but die after about two years in pots. Spruce , forget about it.

Your picture above shows a forest of trees in the mountains. Do you live in the mountains? If you wish to grow it where it does not naturally grow, it may not thrive and so it has never passed muster as a confident bonsai subject.

There are those that wish to try all the time. Bonsai in the USA has been done for over 60 years now, most species suitable for bonsa have been vetted by now. You have to go for it and see what happens......

I like the last sentence! Smoke-Bonsai has been around for a while now in the U.S. Bonsai has been around alot longer in Japan. We are greatly influenced by Japanese Bonsai. In Japan they use Japanese and other Native Asian trees. Because we are so greatly influenced by the Japanese and use several of the types of trees we see the Japanese using. I feel there are still many CA and U.S. Native's that are not used, because we are busy using the Japanese/Asian Natives.

I live on the Central Coast and I know I can grow Red Wood, Manzanita(in the ground), Sierra Juniper(which also lives in the Mountains). I believe I can grow Fir with no problem-but good point and we will have to wait and see.
Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Ang3lfir3]

part of your assessment may be true.... the part about them not often being found in easily collectable areas.... this is true for some species and would prevent them from being used for bonsai in many cases.

as for the concern that we are turning our noses up at material around us.... that certainly is not something I see around here... most of us in the area work with natives.. including many american natives.... yes we have a lot of exotic species but that's pretty typical ne more as well....

as for fir bonsai.... maybe not white fir... but def douglas fir... can and does make great bonsai.... Larry Jackel has collected many....

as Al said... for the most part the number of species usable for bonsai has been vetted .... that is a HUGE list btw ....

 

[Smoke]

part of your assessment may be true.... the part about them not often being found in easily collectable areas.... this is true for some species and would prevent them from being used for bonsai in many cases.

as for the concern that we are turning our noses up at material around us.... that certainly is not something I see around here... most of us in the area work with natives.. including many american natives.... yes we have a lot of exotic species but that's pretty typical ne more as well....

as for fir bonsai.... maybe not white fir... but def douglas fir... can and does make great bonsai.... Larry Jackel has collected many....

as Al said... for the most part the number of species usable for bonsai has been vetted .... that is a HUGE list btw ....

Where does Larry Jackel live?

 

[timhanson81]

Just a dorky botanical detail, but Douglas fir (Pseudotsuga menziesii) isn't really closely related to the "true firs" in the Abies genus such as the red and white firs in our western N. American mountains. Doug fir are actually more closely related to Pines and Larches (http://tolweb.org/Pinaceae/21624).

Out of the firs that grow in the California mountains, I think red fir (Abies magnifica) may have the most potential. It grows at higher elevation than white fir and I have seen stunted, bonsai like, specimens on rocky ridges which at least had somewhat confined root systems.

The point that Smoke makes about trees coming from specific environments being incapable of growing in pots out of their range is a valid one but I don't necessarily agree that all of the suitable native plants have been used to their greatest potential.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Where does Larry Jackel live?

in Colorado .... like I said... doug fir.... and as timhanson81 said.... its not exactly the same as white fir...

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Just a dorky botanical detail, but Douglas fir (Pseudotsuga menziesii) isn't really closely related to the "true firs" in the Abies genus such as the red and white firs in our western N. American mountains. Doug fir are actually more closely related to Pines and Larches (http://tolweb.org/Pinaceae/21624).

Out of the firs that grow in the California mountains, I think red fir (Abies magnifica) may have the most potential. It grows at higher elevation than white fir and I have seen stunted, bonsai like, specimens on rocky ridges which at least had somewhat confined root systems.

The point that Smoke makes about trees coming from specific environments being incapable of growing in pots out of their range is a valid one but I don't necessarily agree that all of the suitable native plants have been used to their greatest potential.

learn something new every day .... (im actually supposed to know that )
Dan has one at Elandan (doug fir) and we will see how it does at sealevel...so far so good... I agree that more could be done with our native material and hopefully we can do more of that in the coming years...