First attempt at bonsai - need advice

nebari64

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Hello bonsai enthusiasts! I am brand new to bonsai. I developed an interest in growing trees from seed and have done several "guerrilla" plantings of baldcypress, dawn redwood and oak trees in my local community. I realized that it might be nice to keep some trees in my own care as bonsai as I do not have room to plant any more at my residence and it is hard to find decent public locations.
I need advice on how to start to develop a weeping willow tree that was started several years ago from a cutting. The base looks interesting to me. It is still in the same pot I transplanted it to about 3 years ago. I live in Rhode island in zone 6B.

Willow tree PNG1.png Willow Tree PGN2.png Willow Tree PNG3.png

1. Should I chop it and leave it in the same container?
2. Should I transplant it into a larger container and let it keep growing? (I am sure the the container is completely root filled - willow roots grow fast.)
3. What do you recommend as the height of the chop?
4. Are any of the dead base branches worth keeping? Should root pruning be done the same time as the trunk chop?
I do have several other candidates for a first bonsai. (willow oaks 16-24 inches tall, one Japanese Maple about 12 inches tall and a baldcypress) Maybe I should start on another candidate first?
Any suggestions and ideas would be greatly appreciated.
 

Shibui

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I have not grown weeping willow as bonsai. Have heard they are not really easy to style - How do you fit long hanging shoots in a small space? Probably need to be largish sized bonsai to really show the weeping habit properly. If it does need to be a larger bonsai probably needs a thicker trunk. That means growing on for a while.
That said, willow are relatively tough trees so if you want to just grow it for practice with techniques go ahead. Have fun.
I also understand the roots grow very fast and have seen reports of root pruning twice each year. Pots full of roots are very difficult to water so regular (at least yearly?) root pruning would be appropriate I think. Potting on to allow more room for roots is not a viable practice - soon your containers will be massive. Root pruning is better.
dead willow wood is very soft and prone to rot. Dead willow branches/trunks do not last long in nature so probably not worth using in bonsai. Hollow trunks are seen more so maybe hollows would be appropriate on willow bonsai?
 

sorce

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Welcome to Crazy!

I watched a grounded one grow from shtick to about a foot around at the base in a few streetside years.

But they are too "finnicky" for me.

Sorce
 

Forsoothe!

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If you do this you will be tethered to it, forever. There are three problems: They grow really fast, and the branches that will look like "weeping" are those that have grown in the last few minutes and have been wired down from their original straight up habit. They only weep on landscape subjects because of scale. The new wood of twigs grows straight up just like everything else and tip over and weep with the weight of elongating. That doesn't occur when your tree is ~2 ft tall, so you have to wire it down. It is weak wood, so you need to begin the wired turn immediately with #1 or your arc will be too broad. No problem, right? Wrong. You can wire it down and cut the tip which will then back-bud close to that cut tip, not from high up on that twig/branch. Then you can wire all the back-buds in the same fashion. They may look good every year by July 1st if you are vigilant and diligent. There is one more problem. Guess where the winter kill occurs? The thinnest branches, of course, so next spring you start from scratch after you root prune it.
 

nebari64

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Shibui: Thank you so much for your comments. I will cut off all dead branches right away and grind down flush with the trunk. I do plan on making the WW bonsai larger than a typical specimen so I can eventually bring the drooping branch effect into the tree. I also plan to repot the tree and prune off some roots so they will have room to grow in another container. I plan to chop the trunk, trim the roots and place into another container all at the same time then let it grow for the rest of the year and then overwinter it. Is this too much stress for the tree? I am not concerned about getting any branches to droop until much later when the large main branches are developed. Forsoothe - thank you also for your advice. As you explained, some aspects of doing a WW bonsai are problematic, but I want to make the attempt and get started with this fantastic hobby. I have seen a few WW bonsai on Internet sites that look very good and got a few pointers on making WW bonsai. (such as placing the bonsai container in a pot of water year around, no pruning after August and pruning branches that block sunlight from desired branches.) Unless I hear back from an experienced Bonsai practitioner that my simultaneous chop, root prune and repot is too ambitious I will get it done this weekend and get my first bonsai on its way! Can someone tell me how tall to make the chop? I was thinking 12 inches for the thickest trunk and remove all other branches.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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The advice from @Shibui is pretty much on target, the warnings of issues from @Forsoothe! is also on target.

Your list of candidates for bonsai, the bald cypress, Japanese maple, and willow oak are all good species. You need to start all of them. Because, especially with young materials, you will have to get them past the ''nursery phase'', where you are bulking them up to become pre-bonsai. This way, if you need to leave one tree just rest and grow, the others will need some attention, this way making patience an easier task. If you are having trouble being patient, get more trees. When you are always behind schedule on bonsai tasks, this means you finally have enough trees.

Willow oak will be a long term project, 20 years or more from seedling. But well worth it.

The Japanese maple will probably need 5 years to be developed, maybe a little more.

The bald cypress grows quickly in warm weather, you can develop this tree quickly.

Each deserves it own thread.

Weeping willow. They are vigorous. You will need to repot at least once every other year, might be better to repot and work roots every year, this is actually to slow down growth. Quickest growth will be year 2 after repotting and pruning roots.

Yes you can repot, root prune and do fairly severe pruning of the branches and trunk all in one day.

Train the trunk as an informal upright. Leave room for the outer branches to weep. Don't worry about creating the weeping branches until after the trunk and major branches are ''finished'' as an informal upright. Trunks that lean, as if leaning out over the water work better for weeping styles.

Get back to me later, I'll draw a picture of the sequence for training the weeping branches. You have a couple years before you need to worry about it.
 

Orion_metalhead

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Watch Nigel Saunders' videos on his weeping willows. He goes through a lot of the issues and also experiences a lot of the issues. He tries some interesting things as well to get the branches to droop.
 

nebari64

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Leo in NE Illinois - many thanks for your recommendations. I will do the chop, root prune and repot by this weekend. I will send photos to show the progress. I was not thrilled to hear about the 20 year time frame for the willow oak because I am 60 years old. I know rather late to begin this game but I believe still worth it! The sequence for training the weeping branches will be much appreciated.

Orion metalhead - I did see a few of N. Saunders videos on Weeping Willow bonsai. They are really excellent teaching videos and got me motivated to believe I could get a good WW specimen started.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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An orchid friend and lecturer, named Fred Hillerman came to Chicago as our orchid group's speaker. He announced that the morning before he had made an Angraecum orchid hybrid. Angraecums are famous for taking a minimum of 10 years from seed to first bloom. Fred announced "I turned 88 years old this year, and I have every intention of living to see this hybrid bloom". Fred was 104 when he passed away, he made and registered an number of hybrids after he made that announcement.

We never know how long we'll be around, no reason to not start projects that will require time to complete. Besides, all good bonsai go through many hands over time. Not one of my current collection of trees is from my original batch I started. I lost many, I gifted away many, I sold a small few. I start lots of projects that I know I'm unlikely to finish, I pass on lots of seedlings as they get size to others.

So never use age as an excuse.

I am lucky enough to have found a circle of friends, a good 10 to 20 of them that all do bonsai, and we "swap projects'' all the time. I'm working a cascade juniper started by one of them, because cascades bore them. I love the challenge of keeping the lower branches balanced energy wise with the upper branches. Difficult to do. So I like the challenge.

I gave away a really nice Eugenia to a member of the group, because I didn't have room for it under lights that winter.

Point is, find a circle of bonsai friends. I found mine between 2 bonsai societies and face to face meet ups with BNut members when I travel. Once you have friends, you will find you end up passing around, and getting material between your group often. Then starting projects you might not finish makes more sense. You can pass them on to someone who will understand what you were doing.
 

nebari64

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Leo - thanks for the encouragement and the story about Fred Hillerman. In my readings online and in this forum, I have seen that patience is a great virtue when it comes to bonsai. So last weekend (6/8/19) I had a change of heart and decided to try and grow out the Weeping Willow tree by planting it in my yard and adding a year or two of growth before attempting to make it a bonsai. Here are some photos of the work.
WW pic 1.jpg WW pic 2.jpg WW pic 3.jpg WW pic 4.jpg WW pic 5.jpg Blue Star juniper.jpg
I figured I would not be able to easily find a WW tree with the unusual base and want to increase the trunk diameter. The job was way bigger than I expected as the rocky New England soil here in RI had about 200-300 pounds of rocks in the small 2.5 foot by 2.5 foot excavated area! I put in the plywood root blocker as I have seen discussed in other forum threads to block deep vertical root development and make it easier to dig up later. The tree is planted right next to a roof downspout on my house which should be a good location for the willow.
The last picture shows a big box store purchase I made the same day as I still wanted something to try as my first attempt at starting a bonsai. It is a blue star juniper in a 3 gallon container. I poked around the roots of all the junipers and selected this one as it the best trunk of all the ones I inspected. My research on Bonsainut and other sites seems of the opinion that this type plant may not be an optimal choice for bonsai. It needs a LOT of thinning out. Any advice would really be helpful. I assume that styling this Blue Star would be similar to styling other junipers. I am going to move ahead with the Blue Star as my first project and see what I can do!
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Thank you for the kind words. Much appreciated.

Blue star juniper is excellent material to get started with, because it will be totally hardy outdoors all winter, and because it is readily available, modestly priced and grows pretty rapidly for a juniper. Its foliage is attractive, though not as easily refined as an Itoigawa or Kishu cultivar of Shimpaku juniper. But that is okay. It is a good start. I like what I see.

Wait a few weeks after the summer solstice, and then you can start thinning out the juniper. Do not prune out more than 25% to 35% of the foliage, you don't want to over do it.

Start by removing branches that obviously won't be needed. For these, always leave a fairly long ''stump'', which later you will strip the bark of an create a deadwood feature out of if they are in ''good spots'' for it. When I say branches that won't be needed, I mean where you have tight clusters of branches from a single point. Here you reduce to 3 branches, then a year or two later reduce to 2 branches. Reason to keep one extra is that until you thin it out, you want to keep styling options open. 3 branches at a node will not rapidly produce reverse taper, where higher number of branches at a single point will quickly produce unwanted bulges and lumps. Reverse taper is often worried about but is really not a big deal, a little is no problem at all.

So go through and remove obvious unneeded branches. If you can't decide? Do nothing for a bit.

Get yourself a few golf tees of different colors, rotate the tree several times. For one tee think only about the surface roots and first inch of trunk - mark the spot where this looks best with a golf tee or bamboo skewer stuck in the soil of the pot around the outside perimeter of the pot. Or make a mark on the pot. White chalk works on terra cotta.

The rotate the tree again, ignoring roots, and just look at the first branches from the trunk, mark the viewpoint that looks best with a golf tee.

Then ignore all else and look where the finer branching and foliage looks best. Add a golf tee marker

Then look for special features, in junipers this is often a piece of deadwood, or it could be a branch with a particularly nice curve. Mark the front for best viewing of this feature.

Now step back and look at where the marks ended up being. More often than not they will be clustered, and tend to be on opposite sides of the tree. This is a clue that those 2 sides of the tree could be your future front or back. Often in bonsai the front and back are relatively easy to switch between without major restyling.

The identification of a ''special feature'' is often the clue as to what direction you should take the tree to style it. Look for a flowing line, with nice movement.

Doing this exercise every few years with a tree will significantly help you in styling the tree. Having friends do it with you, give them each their own color golf teas, see if they see the same things you do. It is marvelously instructive.

If you don't take off too much foliage * less than 30%, you can repot in late summer or early autumn. I would say right about a week or two before the autumnal equinox. Say September 1 to 15. There is a burst of root growth that happens just after the equinox that will help the juniper recover from repotting. Don't repot too late in the season. You need 10 to 12 weeks before hard freezing shuts down root growth for winter. When you repot you can expose the base of the tree and get a good look at the nebari, Look, make note, take a picture then bury the nebari at least 1/2 inch deep in potting mix. Nebari develops best when buried. Expose the nebari on a young tree in development and it will never develop to its full potential.

Following year after repotting, no pruning until autumn. Then take it easy (less than 30%) then the second growing season, after repotting, you can be much more aggressive.

How's that for a start?

And if you feel confused, do nothing. I often let a new acquisition sit on my bench for a year or two just letting it grow and getting familiar with its looks.

Actually I have a fairly old, 40+ years old boxwood that has been sitting on my bench for over 10+ years, it is now approaching 55 or more years old. I still have not styled it. It is an ugly sucker and I can not for the life of me ''See the tree"" in there. But it has a damn nice trunk, I refuse to give it away or sell it, because damn it, I'm going to make something nice out of it eventually. But boxwoods that old and still fit in a 10 inch diameter bulb pan are not that common around here. So it sits waiting for me to get inspired. I got 3 different markers in the pot of possible fronts, have yet to pick one.

So there is nothing wrong with letting a tree grow on you a while.
 
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Leo in N E Illinois

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by the way, if the above isn't enough, the technical name for your 'Blue Star' juniper is

Juniperus squamata 'Blue Star' the species form is call the Flakey Bark Juniper or the Himalayan Juniper. Below is a link to a thread that shows how nice the foliage can become after 12 years of training

 

nebari64

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Leo: What an informative and comprehensive reply to my questions on beginning to bonsai my blue star juniper! Thank you so much. It was very gracious of you to spend the time explaining the steps and procedures to begin the styling process. I will wait until after summer solstice (June 21) as you recommend. Your tip to prune down to 3 branches and then 2 branches is especially helpful. Otherwise I may have over-pruned the juniper and there is no undoing that.
For Father's Day my daughter bought me a bonsai kit that has everything one needs to start styling a bonsai tree. I think I am going to buy a cheap Lazy Susan so I can spin the trees around like I have seen on numerous online videos. The link to the 12 year blue star progression was really impressive! Shows how great a bonsai this species can be with proper care and time.
I am also taking your advice to meet people through bonsai societies. I plan to take a bonsai beginner class with New England Bonsai Gardens near Boston which is 45 minutes form me. Away we go!
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Why thank you very much

My posts can be frightfully long, and I apologize for the long reads, but I type as fast as I talk, maybe even faster than I think sometimes, a curse from having to write reports for work for 35 years. The quicker you type the sooner you can get back to something like surfing the net for bonsai on company time. So remember even a full page essay seldom takes me more than 15-20 minutes.

But thank you, I'm glad you appreciate it.
 
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