First attempt at collecting Yamadori

[bonsai-novice]

Today I decided to try and collect some small trees for the first time. I must have collected 8 trees. One tree had 4 trunks (circled red in the group). 2 had double trunks (one circled blue in the group).

Does anyone have any suggestions on arranging them? I have stuck them all in pots asap but am unsure whether I like how I have arranged them. In the grouping I know the trunks on the left are too tall, but I didn't want to chop it down too far incase I decided to make the 4 trunk one an individual tree.

To groups tolerate being pulled apart into separate trees once they have all knitted their roots together?

 

[HorseloverFat]

I like the arrangement.. with just a few minor “adjustments” it would be grand.

But I would Map them out with little dots, diagram-style until you are pleased.

i have separated trees like this with a Sawz-all, during budswell, actually. With success.

But I think greater success after root disruption depends SOMEWHAT on specie, as well.

Any clue what they are? (I’m outside.. wicked glare)

 

[bonsai-novice]

I am not 100% sure what the are really? The majority of the big trees where I collected them are oak, but they are clearly not that.

There were some blackthorns too but this bark looks too light for that. Could they be birches? I think I saw old catkins on the floor?

Here are the other two trees. I thought I had uploaded them with the others.

Do you reckon it would be best to make the adjustments now, or would it be better for them to settle in and grow a bit first?

 

[HorseloverFat]

I normally at least adjust for trunk height upon collection, except in fall, where I leave a bit more, sending them to bed on a full stomach.

But seeing as you already “got them where they are going”.. I would personally just wait.. the rule of thumb is waiting a year after collection to “work” collected specimens. I personally will “work” collected trees midsummer if they show HUGE vigor. (But this is ME, not the “right” way)

Need them leaves to grow them roots.

 

[bonsai-novice]

Concerning the tree in the last picture, do you think it will sprout new branches okay? It was probably about 7ft tall with all the branched at the very end, so I just cut it near what I assume used to be a bit of a branch.

Quite a few of them also looks like they have the beginnings of a not too bad nebari. Most of them have between 3 and 5 roots coming out fairly evenly spaced around the trunks. I have just buried everything quite deeply to help the roots grow. Would it be better to keep them visible or is it okay to cover them and then uncover them again when everything is a bit more settled?

 

[HorseloverFat]

Concerning the tree in the last picture, do you think it will sprout new branches okay? It was probably about 7ft tall with all the branched at the very end, so I just cut it near what I assume used to be a bit of a branch.

Quite a few of them also looks like they have the beginnings of a not too bad nebari. Most of them have between 3 and 5 roots coming out fairly evenly spaced around the trunks. I have just buried everything quite deeply to help the roots grow. Would it be better to keep them visible or is it okay to cover them and then uncover them again when everything is a bit more settled?

Backbudding is ALSO gonna be “species specific”

Burying the roots is the best way to grow “good” nebari. You normally don’t “expose” those basal roots until you are satisfied.
soooo.. you’re thinking was correct. Bury them suckahs.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Some tree species make much better bonsai than other tree species. If you knew what species you were collecting, you would know whether you are collecting something easy to work with or something more difficult to work with. Not a big deal, you can always figure out what you have later. In the future, taking the time to learn your local trees by their bark and twigs can allow you to collect more desirable material. For example, virtually all species of elm (Ulmus) and hornbeam (Carpinus) make excellent bonsai. Only certain species of maple make good bonsai, with Acer palmatum, the Japanese maple being the best maple for bonsai. IF you accidentally collect Acer pseudoplatanus, the sycamore maple, you will have a very difficult time creating believable bonsai with it. So in the future, take the time to learn to identify your local trees and shrubs.

All of your collected trees have been left rather tall. As a general guide, when you collect trunks, if the trunk does not have much taper, which is your case, you should shorten the trunks to less than half the height of the future tree you envision. All your trunks seem rather tall. It would not hurt to chop them lower before they start leafing out. When you cut them to roughly half the height you envision for you finished tree, the buds, and branches will sprout lower on your trunk. A loose general guide for a generic bonsai is the first third of its height is the trunk, the second third is its main branching, the final third of the height is fine twigs and leaves. This is a "generic" deciduous tree plan. Cutting lower, to half or less than your prefered final height, a greater percentage of the buds to pop have a chance to be in the right area of the trunk to make your primary branching.

In addition, especially in your forest planting, the largest diameter trunk should be the tallest. The smaller the diameter of the trunk the shorter the trunk should be. Your branches you can think of as sub-trunks for this purpose. So rank your trunks by diameter, then shorten the smaller diameter trunks.

Where you have just 2 trunks in one pot, one should be dominant and one should be secondary. The dominant always is the larger diameter trunk. The secondary is the smaller diameter. The secondary should be approximately two thirds or one third the height of the dominant. Never exactly half the height of the dominant. Here for your 2 trunk pot, shorten the secondary trunk. IF diameters are close, then the secondary should be two thirds, if the diameters are wildly different then the secondary should be one third the height.


So if I were you, I would shorten trunks, making the smallest diameter trunks and branches the shortest, and leave nothing taller than half the height of the largest tree you would want as bonsai.

 

[bonsai-novice]

Some tree species make much better bonsai than other tree species. If you knew what species you were collecting, you would know whether you are collecting something easy to work with or something more difficult to work with. Not a big deal, you can always figure out what you have later. In the future, taking the time to learn your local trees by their bark and twigs can allow you to collect more desirable material. For example, virtually all species of elm (Ulmus) and hornbeam (Carpinus) make excellent bonsai. Only certain species of maple make good bonsai, with Acer palmatum, the Japanese maple being the best maple for bonsai. IF you accidentally collect Acer pseudoplatanus, the sycamore maple, you will have a very difficult time creating believable bonsai with it. So in the future, take the time to learn to identify your local trees and shrubs.

Well it is from a rather wet and boggy area of woodland standard english woodland so I expect that narrows the choices down quite a lot. I there were no seeds cases on the ground, so it can't be anything like Beech or Hazel. I would rule out elms and maple trees since they don't grow wild here in our woods. The only adult trees here were oaks, but the majority of the land is covered in bracken and brambles. The last picture I am sure that it is a blackthorn since I impayled myself on one of its spikes as i was pulling it up. The others though, They all have quite smooth bark, so maybe some kind of birch?

Thanks for the ratio tips, I didn't know any of that so that is very helpful.

Do you think there are enough trees in the group, or would it be worth going back to get a couple more? There are only 5 individual plants there, though because 2 of them have multiple trunks i hope it kind of looks like there are more than that?

 

[Shibui]

To groups tolerate being pulled apart into separate trees once they have all knitted their roots together?

You should have no problem taking trees in a group apart in the first couple of years. I regularly rearrange trunks in groups as I become aware of what would look better during the first year of growth. After that it can still be done but requires more roots being cut so success depends on species.
There seems to be some conflict in the shapes and direction of the trees in the group. Trees in a forest tend to have similar shapes so it seems to look better when we do that in bonsai groups too. I think it would look better if the pair in blue were turned around to echo the bends in the other trunks. You could do that now before they grow new roots and leaves or do that next year when they have settled in and recovered from the shock of collecting.

I agree with @Leo in N E Illinois about cutting most trunks shorter. It is common for first timers to be frightened and leave their trees far too long. Nothing that can't be corrected next year but early chops will save a year or so on development.
Groups are one exception and I am usually happy to use taller, thinner trunks in groups.

 

[bonsai-novice]

I have tried to prune them a bit more.

It was a bit of a disaster with the thick one in a pot by itself. The loppers just sort of ripped rather than cleanly cut so that is now quite a lot shorter but slightly messy. I have tried to clean it up so hopefully it won't get infected or anything.

For the double trunk one. I have shortened the main trunk a little as I thought it looked too long, but can't make my mind up whether it is still too long. I also shortened the secondary trunk.

I took your advice and turned the tree highlighted in blue around, so I would like to hear what you think?
I also pruned a bit more off these but not enough I think. 3 of the trunks look the same height but I was too nervous about cutting too much off as I think I may have made the ones on the right hand side too short.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nice job, the ones on the right are not too short. The new arrangement is better than the previous. The "flow" of the trunks, their movement is more unified. They are all looking like they experience the same wind.

I would still shorten the left side of your group, do it soon, in the next few days you are going to have to stop working on them so they can grow roots. The jostling, and vibration from cutting will break the brand new root buds. So make your final adjustments in the next few days, then step back and just let the group grow. You probably will do nothing further with the group for at least one growing season, possibly two.

Three or more trees can represent a forest. Five trees is definitely considered a forest, where 3 trees is usually considered a clump. At numbers less than 10 forests are traditionally odd numbers of trunks. Once you have more than 10 trees in the forest whether the count is even or odd does not matter. The number 4 is always avoided. For social-cultural reasons in much of Asia 4 is an unlucky number. In terms of visual display theory, having 4 elements tend to create static images.

So keeping your forest at 5 trunks is just fine. You can always add to it later.

By the way, blackthorn make excellent bonsai. There are some fabulous examples out there. Hopefully the forest will prove to be a species that is easy to work with. Post photos as the leaves emerge. I am curious as to what you have found.

 

[bonsai-novice]

Nice job, the ones on the right are not too short. The new arrangement is better than the previous. The "flow" of the trunks, their movement is more unified. They are all looking like they experience the same wind.

I would still shorten the left side of your group, do it soon, in the next few days you are going to have to stop working on them so they can grow roots. The jostling, and vibration from cutting will break the brand new root buds. So make your final adjustments in the next few days, then step back and just let the group grow. You probably will do nothing further with the group for at least one growing season, possibly two.

Three or more trees can represent a forest. Five trees is definitely considered a forest, where 3 trees is usually considered a clump. At numbers less than 10 forests are traditionally odd numbers of trunks. Once you have more than 10 trees in the forest whether the count is even or odd does not matter. The number 4 is always avoided. For social-cultural reasons in much of Asia 4 is an unlucky number. In terms of visual display theory, having 4 elements tend to create static images.

So keeping your forest at 5 trunks is just fine. You can always add to it later.

By the way, blackthorn make excellent bonsai. There are some fabulous examples out there. Hopefully the forest will prove to be a species that is easy to work with. Post photos as the leaves emerge. I am curious as to what you have found.

Thanks. I hope it at least looks a little better so fingers crossed. I thought it was the case about the numbers thing, but I wasn't 100% sure, so thanks for confirming that, and I will take pictures of the leaves when they appear. Hopefully I won't have to wait too long. Is it likely they will leaf later than normal this year considering they need to make new roots first? or will they do both roots and leaves at the same time?

Am I right in thinking that a group should sort of be a bit like a pyramid, with the tallest tree in the middle, and then gettin progressively shorter as you move to the outside and the back?

For the tree in the middle, would you leave that angled bit at the top, or would you suggest removing that part?

For the next thickest part just to its left, would you suggest cutting it just above the curve in the trunk?

got the last of the thick-ish trunks, I quite wanted to leave that longer side branch on so it would have a bit of overhang, though I imagine that is a probably rather ugly idea. Any suggestions for that trunk?

I think the front right and the back middle looks quite empty. Would you agree or am I just over thinking and it is a case of less is more?

I know it will be species specific, but is there a general time frame from going from "a stick in a pot" to something that actually looks like a tree again? I assume it will take a good few year for any of them to have anything that resembles tree limbs again?

I don't suppose someone could explain the difference between summer and winter pruning? I have been trying to read up on it, but I still don't really get the difference?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@bonsai-novice
my answers are in red

Thanks. I hope it at least looks a little better so fingers crossed. I thought it was the case about the numbers thing, but I wasn't 100% sure, so thanks for confirming that, and I will take pictures of the leaves when they appear. Hopefully I won't have to wait too long. Is it likely they will leaf later than normal this year considering they need to make new roots first? or will they do both roots and leaves at the same time?
With deciduous trees collected while dormant, what normally happens is they only open the number of buds the root system can support. So initially, you might get just a few buds and a few leaves. Then as new root develop, through the summer more buds will pop and more leaves will sprout You might not get new branches right away, but once roots have gotten going, you will get much more growth. The reason you leave it alone the first summer is because there won't be a lot of growth that needs anything done with.

Am I right in thinking that a group should sort of be a bit like a pyramid, with the tallest tree in the middle, and then gettin progressively shorter as you move to the outside and the back? More or less yes. The shorter trees are to the sides and the back. Tallest tree is rarely dead center. Usually tallest tree is offset left or right of dead center. Second tallest tree is often in the opposite half of the forest from the tallest. So if tallest tree is a little to the right from center, second tallest tree will be a little to the left of center.

For the tree in the middle, would you leave that angled bit at the top, or would you suggest removing that part? Branches on a trunk, usually the thickest branches are low on the trunk and progressively get thinner going up. Both trees with branches near the top, the branches are too thick in diameter for the finished design. Now or later those branches will need to be removed. I would shorten both of them to just below those branches. (It is up to you, but my taste would shorten them some). If the branch you are talking about is low on the trunk, you definitely keep it, I was talking about the branches near the tops of the trunks.

For the next thickest part just to its left, would you suggest cutting it just above the curve in the trunk? I would cut it based on the height of your tallest tree. cut it so that it is about 2/3rds the height of the tallest tree, maybe a little taller. The curve give some movement to the trunk so you do want to keep the curve and a little past the curve.

got the last of the thick-ish trunks, I quite wanted to leave that longer side branch on so it would have a bit of overhang, though I imagine that is a probably rather ugly idea. Any suggestions for that trunk? I would get rid of it, but you need to see how it looks, so leave it if you like, it won't hurt. You can cut it off later, this year or sometime in the future. Once these trunks start leafing out and growing the whole image will look very different.

I think the front right and the back middle looks quite empty. Would you agree or am I just over thinking and it is a case of less is more? You are right in noticing the space, but in this case it will likely become "negative space", in that you need space to develop the impression of depth. Negative space can create the illusion of 3 dimensions. Also, these trunks will grow, branches & leaves. There won't be as much empty space by middle of summer as there is right now. You are asking the right questions. Time will tell if there is too much space or too little.

I know it will be species specific, but is there a general time frame from going from "a stick in a pot" to something that actually looks like a tree again? I assume it will take a good few year for any of them to have anything that resembles tree limbs again? Actually by middle of summer 2022 you should have branches. From sticks to bonsai, does depend on species, and on the quality of the material you start with. In this case, I wager you can have a pleasant forest in 3 to 5 years. It will be something that you might want to put into local bonsai shows maybe 10 to 15 years. It might take 25 to 40 years for it to be ready for All Europe level shows. But the key point is you will be able to look at it, see a forest, and enjoy it in as little as 3 to 5 years.

I don't suppose someone could explain the difference between summer and winter pruning? I have been trying to read up on it, but I still don't really get the difference? Depends on species of tree. Some trees you do no winter pruning, some trees you can do winter pruning. Usually winter pruning is not done until late winter, it is "almost" early spring pruning. The advantage of pruning in winter is there are no leaves to block your view. Summer pruning is usually done once, or twice, occasionally 3 times. Usually the first prune is a week or two before summer solstice. The next is 2 or more weeks after the summer solstice. For most species pruning is stopped a couple weeks before the autumnal equinox. You need to allow any growth triggered by the pruning time to grow out and mature before winter sets in. If you prune too late towards autumn, you can end up with new growth that gets winter killed.

Last edited: Today at 5:04 PM

Summary, you have been asking the right questions. Forests are fun because the trees don't have to be "perfect" for there to be a pleasant, convincing forest image. So while we all like to aim for perfection, more so than individual trees, forest plantings can have a lot of imperfections and still present a good image. The guidelines I outlined are only that, guides. There are no hard and fast rules. There is a lot of leeway in forest design. So make your final adjustments, then sit back and watch it grow. The first growing season, you really don't have to do anything except keep it watered.

 

[bonsai-novice]

Thanks for the indepth answers. They They are really helpful. I didn't know any of that stuff so it is greatly appreciated.

Here is what I have got now.

I think the step second from the left is still too tall, but I wasn't really wanting to cut it down as then it would mean I would have to chop its twin down even more and I thought then it would be nothing much more than a stump. So I hope that is okay. I hope that is enough pruning to make a good start. Is it easier for the cut marks to heal over when it it is a simple stump like this, as opposed to when there are branches surrounding the cut area, or does that not make much difference?

 

[sorce]

I scanned for soil talk and didn't find anything.

Looks quite muddy.

Reckon that would be meh in terra cotta and death certain in plastic pots.

Hort first.

Sorce

 

[bonsai-novice]

It is about a third builders sand, a third compost, and a third ordinary soil. I have always had a fair amount of success growing plants including quite a few trees, I just have never tried turning those trees into bonsai. I don't have anything like pumice or akadamia so I have basically just treated them like any other plant that I have grown before. I have put a layer of shingle in the bottom to help with the drainage as well. Plus, they come from a marsh, so hopefully they shouldn't mind a bit of extra moisture? I know this isn't right but I ended up getting these trees on a whim because it was a nice day

I have just taken a closer picture of on of the trunks. I don't suppose this helps with identifying what they are?

 

[Njyamadori]

I use 100% pumice and I just did my first real collection and I think I got someone nice trees

 

[bonsai-novice]

I use 100% pumice and I just did my first real collection and I think I got someone nice trees

Thats cool. I'd love to see them if you had any pictures?

 

[Njyamadori]

Thats cool. I'd love to see them if you had any pictures?

Nothing amazing or professional but here is a bittersweet I collected .

 

[bonsai-novice]

Nothing amazing or professional but here is a bittersweet I collected .

Is that plasticine you have put over the cut ends?