First Attempt

[goosetown]

Looked all over the real (well, locally) and virtual world to find a younger bonsai that I could attempt to wire and shape for the first time. Finally found one that I like on, of all places, eBay. Only cost me $30, so if it doesn't work out it's not the end of the world. But my excitement is significant.

Tree should be here on Wednesday, and I wanted to solicit opinions from those here as to where I should take this. As you can see there's not very much movement in the trunk at the moment, but I really took a shine to the composition with the rock. Obviously I'm going to have to take a closer look at the branch structure and such, but my initial thoughts are:

--Bend the trunk away from the rock at the base, then training it back towards from the middle to the top.

--Allow the bottom-most branch to plateau over the left side of the bowl.

--Find a fitting branch to train out over the top of the rock, extending out over the RIGHT side of the bowl.

Again, I need to get a look at the tree itself to get into more detail, but these are my first instincts. What would yours be? Very curious to hear where you all would take it.

Will include some more pictures later this week.

 

[iant]

So you're planning on keeping the rock? (see http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?7957-What-is-the-purpose-of-the-rock.)
But seriously, if you like the composition as is you might just keep it that way and enjoy it for a while... and see if you can keep it healthy for a season. You will likely want to take a good look at the soil when you get it and figure out how to keep the roots happy.
Ian

 

[goosetown]

Funny. That thread is...condescending, to say the least. It's an unfortunate trend I'm noticing, the attitude conveyed by many bonsai veterans to newcomers: you don't know what you like yet, but we're here to teach you. Not coming down on you, Ian - I know you were joking. Just disappointed that the attitudes displayed in most that conversation seem to be more the rule than the exception.

Yep, I'll be keeping the rock, and for no other reason than I find it aesthetically pleasing. So the composition I do enjoy. However, I like movement in the trunk and foliage that has a little bit more of a...point to it, I suppose. That's why I was on the lookout for something that was young enough to train and unpolished enough that it one could really see a change in appearance from start to "finish". Something that could be developed rather than simply tended to. I like creating things. This seemed like a nice opportunity to try my hand at such.

 

[iant]

Goosetown,
You're right.... I could have been nicer... Or perhaps just not said anything. But you asked for styling advice on a tree that's got finished styling. It's done up and ready for sale complete with rock and moss halfway up the trunk. So my advice was sincere that you bought it because you loved the style so you might consider leaving it for now in the same style. Anyway, sorry if I offended you,
Ian

 

[Neurosix]

It's an unfortunate trend I'm noticing, the attitude conveyed by many bonsai veterans to newcomers: you don't know what you like yet, but we're here to teach you.

I feel like I've noticed this too. Not talking about you Ian. I think it has to do with pent-up resentment of regular people looking at their trees and liking the wrong ones the best, or not noticing the right things about them. Plust I've met many who are definitely somewhere on the autism/aspergers spectrum and don't have great people skills, especially in the subtle art of tactful criticism. I'm not hating, I probably am too.

 

[Fallen_Reality]

Goosetown, I too have felt the same as you. I posted a mallsai asking for help keeping it alive it it was called a bush, which it is, but it was rude to point it out. If you can handle the attitudes, this place is still a great place to get help from others. You have to realize that many of the posters here are purists, and anything that does not conform to the ideal image of a bonsai will be critiqued. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as you use your own judgement when considering what they say.

 

[Decoy Octopus]

Seemed like constructive criticism to me. You post - he replies.

 

[goosetown]

Goosetown,
You're right.... I could have been nicer... Or perhaps just not said anything. But you asked for styling advice on a tree that's got finished styling. It's done up and ready for sale complete with rock and moss halfway up the trunk. So my advice was sincere that you bought it because you loved the style so you might consider leaving it for now in the same style. Anyway, sorry if I offended you,
Ian

No offense whatsoever - again, I was pointing to the attitudes in the post you linked to, which you appeared to be using in jest.

But your response begs a question, and perhaps this is where my naivete DOES indeed show - IS this a tree with finished styling? Because it seems to me to be in a rough stage of execution. Now, a caveat: I'm positive there is only so much I can learn from reading four books, watching videos on YouTube, and picking at stuff here and there on the Internet. Obviously, there's also a very different challenge with this tree than one that I might have scooped out of nature.

Here's what I liked about the tree and its potting: it's young, it looks strong (again, I'll have to look it over to be sure about this, but I'm asking assuming it's all on the up-and-up), it was cheap, and I see in it a chance for transformation. I FEEL like I've seen much more mature, much more "fixed" trees molded into something other. But what I feel like is based on, at this time, considerably limited info.

Now, what I'm very interested in is if you think, looking at the picture, that there's less of a chance for that here. And why. Because that's part of the learning process for me, and I'm never against learning ANYTHING...as long as I'm being taken seriously So if you look at this and think, "This tree is already established, and you're going to have issues manipulating it," I'm all ears. Perhaps I've overstepped my capabilities here. Or just picked the wrong tree.

 

[daygan]

I would say it's not a finished tree. It could be considered finished by, say, the ebay seller, but you could make it better and give it a more mature conifer feel to it if you wanted to.

Of course, I haven't really worked with conifers yet, so I don't feel like I have the expertise to give you advice about what you can do, but my understanding is that you'll have a decent amount of bend-ability in areas that you want to manipulate.

 

[iant]

My point was this:
You have two choices with this type of juniper purchase. You can keep it in it's same size and work on bulking up the foliage in the branches and enjoy it as is... perhaps emphasize some aspects more than others.... or you can scrap the 'image ready to sale' that's there and grow it out. It's mainly a question of what size trunk you want. Personally I feel that certain species have a trunk size that works best with that species... so personally I'm not that excited about having a juniper with a trunk the size of my index finger. Which is incidentally what I have. My uncle gave me a cute little juniper 3 months ago when he came to visit that he bought from a roadside guy. So I had two choices.... stick with it in it's current style (which is what I suggested to you,) or grow it out for several years and try to get what I consider to be a reasonable trunk. I wasn't sure what I wanted so I repotted it (it was spring) into a better substrate and it's getting healthy (I kept the rock.)
So my comments are based on the fact that I personally (other than my Uncle's gift) don't have anything anywhere near finished. I'm growing out trunk segments and practicing horticulture... i.e. trying to keep everything on track, healthy, and thriving.

Ian

 

[berobinson82]

Hello goosetown. B here.

As a fellow neophyte, I'd like to try and help you stay motivated. I really don't think that the more experienced artists are trying to be rude. I honestly believe that they've been around for so long that they've answered the same questions we ask 100 times and perhaps it becomes a more efficient way of answering to disregard pleasantries and deliver a succinct lesson . Remember, these educated folks don't HAVE to reply to our queries. Bonsai instruction often comes with a price tag.

I recall feeling how you may right now.The lessons are going to be many if you are willing to accept them for what they are; no matter the "attitude" attached. I'll ask you to research a fellow named Ryan Neil. He went in search of bonsai knowledge from a Master Kimura and reported that the apprentices were treated "like dogs". Imagine that! You come seeking knowledge and are denied many simple luxuries we take for granted such as proper bedding and enough food to stay full... These good folks on bnut will be a fantastic resource if you stick it out. I've learned this is no place for thin skin. As a student, not a peer, I will GLADLY accept knowledge bestowed upon me no matter how coarse the wording may be. Hang in there man. It's worth it.

With sincerity,

B

an edit:

This discourse, I feel, accurately illustrates my point:

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?8020-Getting-excited-about-the-USNBE!!!/page5

 

[goosetown]

B,

Lots of good points, and many that I agree with heartily. I think us newbies are here, first and foremost, for information. I'm here (and in other places) to soak it up like a sponge. But I think there's a line that gets crossed far more often than is necessary.

I like opinions. In many instances, I thrive on them. I'm a screenwriter by trade, so opinions are a commodity I deal in daily - both good ones and bad ones. If there's ANYTHING I've learned, it's how to grow thick skin. But I've also grown up as an artist - in many forms - and I think that there's a way to encourage and criticize while staying respectful of what someone else deems beautiful. And that's what I'm finding aggravating here and elsewhere - the purists or the masters or whomever going beyond critique and telling you what you should and shouldn't like, what does and doesn't look good. It happens a lot, I'm afraid.

Ian gave some great opinions earlier, ones that I'm digesting right now; is practical example of the bonsai his father gave him was especially helpful. But take a look at the link he provided about the rocks. That's the kind of stuff that just pisses me off. Does the fact that I like a rock make me some kind of idiot? Unfortunately, that's the attitude that I'm getting more often than not. "What, you want to do THAT? No no no, you don't know what you're doing - you want to do what I WANT to do."

I'm totally down for someone looking at my original entry and saying, "You don't want to do that, and here's why..." or, "That's not going to work, and here's why..." and offer me some kind of practical advice on how to achieve what I want to achieve, not do what they want me to do because they think it'll look better. Know what I mean? That's what I'm bumping up against.

Advice I'm always willing to receive. Tools I'm always ready to accept. Guidance I'm always willing to follow. But getting crapped on because a "purist" thinks something I find aesthetically pleasing is wrong? Yeah, I have neither the time nor the inclination to put up with that.

 

[october]

Hi goosetown...You should always post a tree that you want to post.. Don't worry about the comments. Bonsai is a very fun and entertaining art/hobby. However, it is a very uniform art. There is room for interpretation and creative license. However, generally for a tree to be considered well balanced, credible, showable and pleasing..it usually conforms to one of the 5 styles of bonsai. If I may offer you this advice. Start studying the 5 styles of bonsai. Upright, informal upright, slant, semi cascade and cascade. You cannot really begin your bonsai journey until you are at least a familiar with them. You can do an on line search and/or pick up a couple of books. Once you know the 5 styles and sub styles, a whole new world will open up. You will begin to understand the art more. Also, criticism is a huge part of bonsai.. even 300 year old masterpeices are judged and critiqued.

We were all beginners at one time. Part of the fun was the journey of getting to each new level of bonsai experience. It is not something that I would deprive a new enthiast of. However, there is much good advice to be listened to. Listening to good advice will actually save you a lot of wasted time, money and effort on material that you will later find out may not turn out like you had hoped.

The tree you have now is a good beginner tree. The reason people are commenting about the rock is actually to help you be aware of what sellers are trying to sell you. Generally, these compositions are sold to people as traditional bonsai, which they are not. They will gladly take your money for these compositions. They might be an ok first tree, but soon, very soon, you will want to move on. In reality, you might be better off going to a store like Home Depot or Lowes and picking up a 20 landscape tree.. Like a juniper or yew. Then you can practice on that.

As we progress in bonsai..we see that what we liked at first, turns out to not hold the promise we thought it did. Also, what you liked in year one, you probably wont like in year 3. In year 5, you probably won't like what you liked in year 3 etc.....

As far as the rock, I actually like the look of the rock itself.... Actually, at some point, maybe remove the rock and put it in/on a small stand or even a small tray with some sand.

I hope this was helpful,

Rob

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

And I will say that Rob took the time to write that at nearly 2 am his time... which is bending my noodle right now.

Goose... as one of those who could be called a 'purist' but who also strives to be kind at every opportunity, I think you might have also read more into that rock thread than was being implied. I know nearly all the players extremely well... and most of them would be very dismayed to be taken in that light. We make light of things sometimes only because they frustrate us so much... don't get me going about those people who sell on the side of the road. I'm sure my bloodpressure goes up every time I see them. NOT because of the quality (or lack) of the trees... but because of all the horrid mis-information they spread.

The frustration stems from seeing dashed hopes and disillusioned dreams time and again from failures that were on their way to fruition long before the aspiring learner bought them. Many of us who have been at it for some time take very seriously the success of newer learners. Sometimes people can be a little hard in wanting to wake people up to the truth. But if you want to stay in this art long, and progress, then sometimes you'll have to hear that the stick in the pot needs to go in the ground. It has nothing to do with being a purist... but everything to do with experiance. If I can cut off even a few seasons of experiance by telling you something I learned the harder way, then YOU become the better artist in the end.

I hope as you get to know people more closely that you'll go back and re-read that thread in particular, and see it with different eyes... and more that you have patience and compassion yourself when you find yourself in our position.

All the best,

Victrinia

 

[goosetown]

Rob,

Thanks for the thoughtful advice. Just to give you a quick recap of my situation:

My first bonsai was a 25-30 year-old juniper that was given to me as a gift. It's not needed much "work" on my part, save for some snips here and pinches there. I learned quite a bit from the nursery it was purchased from and so far the tree has thrived. It's beautiful and I love it and it makes me happy. But it's not really a hands-on tree most of the year.

My second juniper was purchased from the same nursery but is younger, about 12-15 years old. Right now I'm just in the process of letting it grow out, then shaping here and there and possibly, at some point, doing some light wiring and bending. It's a lot of fun having something that's as yet incomplete and that has so much more potential for creativity.

And that brought me to ordering this current tree. I picked over and over and over and over to find something that had the right combination of what I was looking for. In the end, the fact that this isn't a "true" bonsai - yet - made it the right choice for me. For only $30, I get to tinker with it how I see fit. If something goes wrong, I'm not out a ton of money and I haven't killed a priceless specimen. If everything goes right, I have a hell of a tree 10, 20, 30 years down the road. If it's something in between, I learn a great deal. I get to experiment. I get to go from reading to doing. So whatever the seller intended the current composition to say or represent and however falsely really doesn't matter to me - I found what I had been looking for, which is all that mattered. However, I absolutely see the point in warning a newb like myself to keep expectations low and know the reality of what I was purchasing.

This one also had the added bonus of the rock, which gave me an additional challenge. I realize most purists consider the tree THE thing, and that makes total sense to me. But I feel like having the rock there as part of the overall composition allows me not only to style the tree, but also the landscape. How can this tree be manipulated to perfectly embrace and coexist with its little rock friend? To me, that's a much more enjoyable project than just thinking of the tree on its own. It goes from being an island to being an environment. And you're absolutely right - what if, years from now, it's thriving and I decide to take the rock out? Where does it go from there? Another challenge then presents itself.

As long as I don't kill the thing, it's a win-win situation, and even if I DO kill it, it'll be lose-win because I'll have learned a ton. What I'm looking at now are all the possibilities while at the same time knowing that the risks have been mitigated. Who knows - maybe it'll show up and I'll look it over, lose the rock, and take a totally different approach. Anything's possible, which is why this is all so exciting

 

[goosetown]

Much appreciated, Victrinia.

I think you're absolutely right about the experts and the well-heeled wanting to help us tyros avoid mistakes and avoid the misinformation some spread. I definitely found some of this here and other places.

What I've found more though, unfortunately, are experienced practitioners who believe in one aesthetic and one aesthetic only - theirs. I'm extremely appreciative of much of the advice I've received when its come to tree health, upkeep, etc. I'm more than happy to have someone tell me I've made a mistake if it's detrimental to my bonsai's overall wellness; I've done something dumb on several occasions and had to correct it, so I by no means think I'm infallible. What I find I'm offered too often, however, is contradictory "advice" not on practical matters, but on artistic ones. Of course, it's natural for someone to think and opine, "Well, I wouldn't have done it that way." And that's totally legitimate. But there have been far too many times when I've asked a practical question and an answer started with some form of, "First of all, you shouldn't do that because the tree is going to look ridiculous/that's not the way it's traditionally done/that's not the point of bonsai."

I learn by taking advice just like anyone else, but I also learn by doing and making my own mistakes and not being afraid of them. So if I put an idea out there and someone's response is, "That's not going to look right," how does that help me? That's one I can figure out on my own and either sink or swim with it. I'd much rather hear either, "Not what I would do, but here's what you could try," or, "If you do that, it's going to hurt the tree because..." so I can learn something rather than simply someone's personal taste.

Does that make sense? I don't want to make it seem like no one is helpful - clearly, several people have been in this thread alone. I just find that many experienced bonsai enthusiasts seem more interested in newbies agreeing with their tastes rather than learning about their own. It's obviously not going to keep me from learning more and moving forward, but it's mildly disappointing nonetheless.

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Ahhh... if the rock is the thing in harmony with the tree... then what you really need to understand is that there are many forms of pot horticulture and some may speak to you much more than bonsai itself. In bonsai the tree IS the thing. It is the begining and the end, so far as the combination of the pot and the tree and their proportion/relationship to each other. If you want to experiment with a more landscape style, that is a different art all together (though very related)... and you should be researching Saikei or Penjing... both are worthy and wonderful artforms... where the total scene is the thing and the tree is subordinate to that relationship.

I think all of us to some degree start out with being fascinated with saikei and then evolving to a love affair with the trees themselves... the very first thing I ever created was a saikei and I called it bonsai for MONTHS. lol

V

 

[goosetown]

PS Victrinia -

I was looking in another thread at one of your show trees...AMAZING stuff. I know you're probably already very proud but if for some insane reason you're not, you should be.

 

[goosetown]

I certainly won't quibble with you over definitions, as you're correct about all of them. To me, what I'm shooting for here is another dimension of bonsai that's not quite Saikei or Penjing.

As it stands right now, I look at those creations and they're just too busy for me, too involved, too NOT focused, as you pointed out, on the tree. I'm somewhere left of that. Think of it this way: what if I imagined the rock there and styled the tree as if it were? That would be straight-up bonsai. In spirit, what I'll be doing is the same thing, but the rock actually exists. I suppose by leaving the rock in there I violate that semantic covenant that would allow me to call it "bonsai". BUT...as I said, I look at the rock as a challenge and as part of the composition, but it's really about the tree at the end of the day.

So is it bonsai/not bonsai? Whatever anyone likes to call it is fine with me. I'm just keeping the rock in because of the challenge and because I think it's pretty. But moving on to more at this time isn't really something I'm interested in.

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Let me challenge you with a thought before I go to bed...

It is perfectly right and fantastic for you to love what you are doing/have... But in the same hand, if you want someone to tell you something is good or even interesting if it is not, what benefit is that to you?

If someone says that wouldn't look right, they are doing that through the lens of their visual experiance. As you get into this more you will find out that there are as many levels of visual experiance as there are colors in the rainbow. I've had 'masters' scoff at things I am doing, and even my own teacher gets on my case... but knowing when you've found your own expression is realizing when you're willing to stand your ground for that vision, inspite of the critique. Not obstinently, but confidently. Be willing to hear the critique... have the knowledge to weigh the merits of the critique and then be artist enough to be willing to set it aside.

I made the big mistake of disputing my husband's artistic vision on something the other day... and much later I realized I had no business meddling. I was able to back up and make it right... but I am so used to seeing things very differently from him, for all that we love the same art. And what's even better is that I realized I was also completely wrong... but that took days of wrestling around about it... deep discussions, and being willing to challenge our convictions both ways. As challenging as that may be to do at times, it had value for us both.

All the best,

Victrinia