First forest planning

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

I have a couple cedrus brevifolia and after some research found they grow in pure stands but also mixed stands with oriental plane and golden oak. I think it would be more interesting to have a second compatible species rather than more of the same. It looks like by leaf size the golden oak looks potentially doable. The plane seems like a no because huge leaves but I really like the idea of a deciduous that will change color similarly. Any thoughts or suitable alternatives?

 

[Forsoothe!]

It's a fool's errand. They won't play nice together, and the differences that exist in a forest at a half mile away look much different when the pot is an arm's length away. Buy the trees of your choice and set them on the bench next to each other. Think about it.

 

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

I had a feeling that might be the case I saw it in the habitat section of docs I found on the species and thought "huh that could be interesting if it can be done".
Also just to be sure I understand do you mean the second species in general doesn't work growing together or it's too difficult to get things to scale right?

 

[Forsoothe!]

Yes, the scale only works in our brain because we have nothing to compare something to. When you have two things next to each other, our brains go to shit trying to choose which one is proper scale. When there is just one kind of leaf we accept that we are looking at a small forest even though a Japanese Maple forest leaf in a bonsai can only be taken down to some size, which if you scaled it out, you would see that the leaf in the bonsai would about a foot in diameter compared to the trunks of the trees. We don't scale it out when just looking at one kind, we just accept it. When you have two, you have to choose.

Flowering groups don't work either because no matter how hard you try the bastards will not bloom at the same time. You'll have one in bloom and some in a dozen stages of bud, some past glory and it just never works the way a florist's display works in a garden show where they place stuff in some lovely pattern. They have a warehouse full of potted individuals from which to pick only the cooperative constituents and jam them together whether it kills them or not. They can change them out daily, too. All Cedars will work great because they have small needles to start with. Go to it!

 

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

Yes, the scale only works in our brain because we have nothing to compare something to. When you have two things next to each other, our brains go to shit trying to choose which one is proper scale. When there is just one kind of leaf we accept that we are looking at a small forest even though a Japanese Maple forest leaf in a bonsai can only be taken down to some size, which if you scaled it out, you would see that the leaf in the bonsai would about a foot in diameter compared to the trunks of the trees. We don't scale it out when just looking at one kind, we just accept it. When you have two, you have to choose.

Flowering groups don't work either because no matter how hard you try the bastards will not bloom at the same time. You'll have one in bloom and some in a dozen stages of bud, some past glory and it just never works the way a florist's display works in a garden show where they place stuff in some lovely pattern. They have a warehouse full of potted individuals from which to pick only the cooperative constituents and jam them together whether it kills them or not. They can change them out daily, too. All Cedars will work great because they have small needles to start with. Go to it!

That all makes sense! First it was my recent obsession with cedars that drew me to them then when I saw them sitting next to each other at the nursery I thought they would make a really cool forest! I'll probably start them in a 1020 Anderson flat or similar in spring I'll probably try to grab one more larger one as well. They had a 6 gallon large one that I actually almost grabbed but it had a skinny little trunk that went up to a large knuckle with 5 branches coming out that just looked out of scale to the skinny trunk.

 

[Forsoothe!]

That all makes sense! First it was my recent obsession with cedars that drew me to them then when I saw them sitting next to each other at the nursery I thought they would make a really cool forest! I'll probably start them in a 1020 Anderson flat or similar in spring I'll probably try to grab one more larger one as well. They had a 6 gallon large one that I actually almost grabbed but it had a skinny little trunk that went up to a large knuckle with 5 branches coming out that just looked out of scale to the skinny trunk.

Hmmmm.... Better bring your sights down, groups have a tendency to get too big & heavy to carry, even for a young man. Ceramic pots have a specific gravity 5 times wood. Getting them big is a lot less important than getting them to grow together in close association. Big trees have big roots that do not mesh well and that will govern how close together they can be more than any other factor. Have a better look at that JM link for specifics about planting forests. Cedar foliage is also more demanding of space, too, getting the branches short enough to stand next to each other is a major process all by itself. You'll need to do a lot of test-fitting, growing-on, re-fitting, ad infinitum.

 

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

Hmmmm.... Better bring your sights down, groups have a tendency to get too big & heavy to carry, even for a young man. Ceramic pots have a specific gravity 5 times wood. Getting them big is a lot less important than getting them to grow together in close association. Big trees have big roots that do not mesh well and that will govern how close together they can be more than any other factor. Have a better look at that JM link for specifics about planting forests. Cedar foliage is also more demanding of space, too, getting the branches short enough to stand next to each other is a major process all by itself. You'll need to do a lot of test-fitting, growing-on, re-fitting, ad infinitum.

Oh yeah I definitely wasn't thinking of putting that big boy in a forest. I had called the nursery about pre-ordering another libani in a 5 gallon and the lady I spoke to is similarly obsessed with cedar and she said "ooo do you know what we have? A rare 6 gallon container grown brevifolia". I decided on the more interesting 1 gallon little guys instead for a forest.

 

[leatherback]

Keep in mind that Cedars are iffy when it comes to rootwork. THe amount of rootwork needed initially to get the individual plants close together may be a challenge for the plants. It can be done, but you have to know the species and how to work the roots, I think.

 

[YAN]

On a side note,

do not bare root cedars, choose in advance what soil you will use for your forest planting and let your cedars get used to that with several repottings untill it’s in 100% pure intended planting soil,

I learned the hard way with cedars (cedrus libani) but I heard all cedars are similar when it comes to root work.


that’s max i could remove of nursery soil without killing the tree.

 

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

Thanks for the tips I was kicking around the idea of going with pots for a year at least or starting with extra generous spacing. I was talking to one of the nursery's experts and she said she has had very good luck with bare rooting here in January. I do have one Liabani that came root balled before I knew how difficult that was going to make things. I also have a 1 gallon though and they come in nice loose heavily barky organic soil. I'm hoping I should be able to keep the bare rooting pretty gentle I may just try to mix something replacing only half or less of the organic to match, just in case it's worse than I thought. They did say they would still honor the 1 year warranty since doing anything with a cedar this time of year is a death sentence. Usually they require planting within 3 months or something.

 

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

Keep in mind that Cedars are iffy when it comes to rootwork. THe amount of rootwork needed initially to get the individual plants close together may be a challenge for the plants. It can be done, but you have to know the species and how to work the roots, I think.

Yeah I definitely realize that they are super touchy. Just yesterday while I was watering I realized I currently have a blue atlas, 2 libani and 2 brevifolia to repot in January (there will almost certainly be more) . I'll be using some seaweed fertilizer to try to ease the transplant stress as much as possible and accruing any tips and knowledge I can in the mean time. Then just hoping I can very carefully keep my success rate high. I'll probably do my junipers, spruce, and amur first if they are ready, to get some practice and warm up for the main event.

 

[leatherback]

Thanks for the tips I was kicking around the idea of going with pots for a year at least or starting with extra generous spacing. I was talking to one of the nursery's experts and she said she has had very good luck with bare rooting here in January. I do have one Liabani that came root balled before I knew how difficult that was going to make things. I also have a 1 gallon though and they come in nice loose heavily barky organic soil. I'm hoping I should be able to keep the bare rooting pretty gentle I may just try to mix something replacing only half or less of the organic to match, just in case it's worse than I thought. They did say they would still honor the 1 year warranty since doing anything with a cedar this time of year is a death sentence. Usually they require planting within 3 months or something.

lucky you. here you buy plants as is. if you find a problem when planting, you might be able to return. but once planted..

 

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

lucky you. here you buy plants as is. if you find a problem when planting, you might be able to return. but once planted..

That does suck. Honestly I think I got really lucky with having this nursery near me. They actually offer I think it's a 4 year warranty if it's ground planted and you use their "myke" product. When I get a house picked and bought I might do this with a large very expensive libani. I can walk around the nursery for an hour and still miss some stuff. Also I'm feeling pretty lucky that cedar are healthy here because I love them.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I have no experience with Cedrus species. I don't know if they "play well" with others.

However it is indeed possible, to mix species of trees in a forest planting. A number of artists have demonstrated that it is possible, and the results can be top notch, if not world class. It was the topic of a relatively recent thread on BNut. Mixed species forests are next level in terms of difficulty, the critiques of Forsoothe are some of the issues one encounters, but these issues can be resolved. See the many photos in the linked thread.

As I said, I do not know if there is anything that uniquely makes Cedrus species unfit for a mixed species forest planting. But it certainly is possible to make good mixed species forests, though it is at least one level up in terms of difficulty.

Brainstorming mountainside mixed forest

you are familiar with this aren't you? This might help as well: https://www.bonsai-nbf.org/blog-archive/2020/6/19/historical-tree-spotlight-the-mixed-forest I’m familiar with the planting! But I’ve never seen that picture of it. 🤓 Neat!.. checkin’ out that link now.

www.bonsainut.com

 

[sorce]

These trees may also share the network in such a way that one brings the other into scale.

Could even be the oak introduces micros that help the cedar root better.

They also can kill each other!

Try it!

Scale can be overcome with material selection.

Sorce

 

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

I have no experience with Cedrus species. I don't know if they "play well" with others.

However it is indeed possible, to mix species of trees in a forest planting. A number of artists have demonstrated that it is possible, and the results can be top notch, if not world class. It was the topic of a relatively recent thread on BNut. Mixed species forests are next level in terms of difficulty, the critiques of Forsoothe are some of the issues one encounters, but these issues can be resolved. See the many photos in the linked thread.

As I said, I do not know if there is anything that uniquely makes Cedrus species unfit for a mixed species forest planting. But it certainly is possible to make good mixed species forests, though it is at least one level up in terms of difficulty.

Brainstorming mountainside mixed forest

you are familiar with this aren't you? This might help as well: https://www.bonsai-nbf.org/blog-archive/2020/6/19/historical-tree-spotlight-the-mixed-forest I’m familiar with the planting! But I’ve never seen that picture of it. 🤓 Neat!.. checkin’ out that link now.

www.bonsainut.com

Seriously, wow! These are as incredible as I thought they might be. Obviously brevifolia has crazy tiny needles so I think they would make a good young cedar Christmas tree shape, mainly because getting to the older flat top tiered shape would take a ton of development. In my mind I was picturing the brevifolia as the smaller trees and the deciduous as the larger but I'm still kicking things around. I have quite a bit of time before I need to worry about deciding what to do.