First long term project

tatorger

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I am a relative beginner at bonsai, meaning I have keeping them alive and general maintenance down and I'am looking for my first start from scratch project. Any suggestions on trees? I am kind of leaning towards azaleas. Any advice? Does anybody know of any nurseries in the hudson river valley area that sell azaleas or an online dealer? The cheaper the better, bonsai is not a good addiction to have in college.

Thank you in advance,
Travis
 

Mike423

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If you are relatively new to the hobby ( a few years in) and a low budget I would generally recommend either collecting trees from the wild and just browsing local nurseries for cheap material with potential to play and learn with. Just my two cents though :) If you re looking for some good Satsuki azalea starter stock you might want to send Telperion Farms a request. I think Ang3lfir3 mentioned it in a previous thread. Been looking to contact them myself to see what their offering but haven't gotten around to it yet.

http://www.telfarms.com/
 

Ang3lfir3

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Azaleas of any kind won't really gain any significant trunk size in a pot... they need to be grown in the ground for a long time... have all their branches removed and be regrown (similar to how tridents can be done.... except much slower) .... if you don't have a field to grow these in (you said ur in college) then it may not be your best option.

satsuki would not be my first choice (and prolly isn't winter hardy in your area) for a tree to start your first long term project on. you might want to work with something a little more forgiving.... you may want to consider a juniper.... or a japanese maple .... maybe even working on a large Zelkova or similar species...you have a lot of options in your part of the country.... what could be nice too is a larch....

Larch are great... you get the best of both worlds... plus they heal quickly and form great callous ....
 

Harunobu

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Wait till the flower period for azalea. Go look at all normal azalea nurseries. Buy one or more you like. Root cuttings after flowering and the new growth has become semi hardwood. Then grow them. Grow them tall and wire them in nice shape. Don't try to make your tree look good by nebari or thick ancient looking tapering trunk. Focus on the flowers.
This is not necessarily true bonsai.


Where I live almost any garden center sells evergreen azalea. Don't buy decidious ones. You want evergreens. They are basically all very simple but different ornamental traits. It's like acer palmatum and all the different cultivar.

I think azalea are good for beginners. Also, all azalea are grown from cuttings. It is well understood how to grow them from scratch. But don't go out and buy a 400 dollar/euro big satsuki bonsai.

In Japan many potted and styled satsuki azalea have relatively thin trunks. It's the meika style. It is very popular and a bit more casual than bonsai. True ancient azalea bonsai of exceptional quality are rare.
 

tatorger

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Thank you for your advice angelfire and harunobu. I think im gonna take a little bit of both sides of your advice angelfire. Well being that im in college time is not an issue to grow a large azalea, also being a bio major has its perks. I do resarch with the the botanist on campus and I have access the the greenhouses/coldframes. We regularly trade plants and im sure that she would love to have an azalea for the next 6 years or so, 5 if everything goes as planned :). Like i said i plan on this being a long term project so i plan on planting it and roughly shaping it while its still in the ground. Sorry for babbling on... that being said the larch idea has intrigued me. Any advice? species, where i can find them, any other advice is welcome!

Thank you,
Travis
 

Harunobu

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Well azalea-wise, you want to grow cultivar with large flowers into large bonsai while those with smaller flowers can be much smaller. Most satsuki probably aren't hardy in your area. So you want to be careful and use a greenhouse if you get special cultivar from more southern states. But there's some that may be fully hardy. There is also the Robin Hill azalea. Many of them are satsuki azalea. They may be sold as garden plants in your area. They generally have quite big flowers though.

As a long term project, you need to grow them tall first, then wire them. Then grow the trunk. Grow nothing by the trunk. Azalea are basally dominant and will grow new buds from everywhere on the trunk. You grow sacrificial branches. You remove them before they get too big and scar too much. And every so many years you will have to replant to make sure the roots stay in a good shape. Also, rearrange the roots so they spread out nicely. And cut away thick roots on the underside that don't contribute to nebari. Things like that. Going to take 20 to 30 years to grow something amazing from cuttings, bonsai-wise though.

You can't ruin an azalea. It will just regrow and produce flowers and look fine. Also, hard to kill by something like repotting. And while they aren't the fastest growers, they are strong growers. What can I say? I like azalea.
 
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Bill S

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Are you a SUNY? Are you able to get to the Albany area, there is an active club there, here is a link - http://mohawkhudsonbonsai.org/

As far as materials go on the Mohawk site look for the link to PMF bonsai, she has different stages of materials for sale, and anything bonsai related.

There is another bonsai nursery in the area, can't think of the name though, hopefully someone will pipe in with that.
 

Bob O

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Travis,
Bill S has pointed you in a great direction for your area. Get in touch with Pauline at PFM Bonsai, she is a treasure to the bonsai community & will be able to give you lots of info on best plants for your area. If you want to grow azalea with small blooms the many varieties of Kurume azaleas found in garden centers are often over looked but make great bonsai.

Hope this helps, and welcome to the addiction of bonsai... :)

Bob O
 

tatorger

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I am not at a Suny school, Im at a small private school about 45 minutes east of syracuse. I contacted Telperion Farms and they have exacly what i was looking for, thank you mike! Thank you everybody for your help! Does anybody have any experience growing azaleas and is willing to share their knowlege?

Thank you,
Travis
 

Harunobu

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I am an azalea person, not a bonsai person. Ask away.

What did you get/are you getting? Satsuki cultivar in whip shape?
 

BoneSci

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Harunobu,

Your post above described it pretty well, but do you have any links for more info on growing out azaleas? I would love to start a similar project and already have a bunch of cutting ready. Thanks,

Chris
 

tatorger

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I don't know what variety yet, we are still going over my options of more cold hardy species. What is proper timing for pruning? Any pests or diseases worth mentioning? Proper soil and fertilizers?

Thank you,
Travis
 

Harunobu

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Kozan and Matsunami are some of the more winter hardy Japanese cultivar. The Robin Hill cultivar are very satsuki like and were hybridized in near Washington DC, so they will also be quite hardy.

The only thing with pruning is that if you prune off a lot too late in the season, there won't be enough time for the plant to regrow before winter. Also, when you plan to prune everything, it doesn't make sense to wait until all the new growth has sprouted and to then cut off everything and have the plant start over.
A good time to prune it back into shape is after flowering. There is still long enough left for new growth to grow and for it to set new flower buds. if you prune at other times you will prune off the flower buds.

For the most growth you want to have as much photosynthetic surface as possible. But also, you do want to remove branches that will challenge with the trunk. No point in having growth that won't contribute to the design. So yeah what you want to do pruning wise depends on what actually needs to grow.
There are generally 3 stages, growing a cutting tall and thin into a single whip. Fattening up the whip into a tapering trunk. And final stage growing branches and foliage pads.

Root rot is probably number 1 disease with azalea. You need well draining soil. Pests aren't a real problem in most parts of the world. There's weevil and a lacebug that can be a problem. But I don't have a problem with that so far. But I am in Europe. Did have some seedlings with unusual red mites.

Soil mix go for 1/1/1 pine bark/course peat/perlite. pH should be in the 4.5-6.0 range. 100% kanuma can also be used but is probably too expensive and maybe not worth the money. Imported azalea bonsai are always in kanuma. If what you get is in kanuma then use kanuma in your mix.

Azalea need little fertilizer. Often the pine bark decomposing will be enough to prevent chlorosis. I have heard people say they see results with fertilizing heavily. But azalea can be burned with liquid fertilizer. I know rhododendron & azalea nurseries use resin pellets that have membranes that slowly release fertilizer through osmosis. One brand is Osmocote. The membranes only become preamable if the mineral level in the soil becomes low enough.

In Japan they use bags with rape seed cakes. Another product is Naruko. For american products, some people recommend Miracid but I think that is a liquid product. Therefore it would be safer to use something like HollyTone.

Don't fertilize in late summer and autumn. It will delay the azalea from going into dormancy and that will be trouble with early frost.

BoneSci, You grow the cuttings into a single whip for the first few years. You want to prune before new buds become major branches. Repot every 2 to 3 years. When it becomes pot bound this will slow down growth. You want as many roots as possible. More roots means the plant can support more photosynthetic surface. And the more of that, the faster it can grow.

When it is tall enough, you wire it up. Japanese have a special way of doing this. Azalea are very brittle and need to be set in the new shape strongly or they will revert back. I haven't done this myself yet so not much to comment on.

Now you need to grow as many sacrificial branches as possible. The lower they are on the trunk, the better for the taper. They need to be removed before they get too big and start to compete with the trunk and/or cause too big scars. Depending on if you go for a meika design or a more proper meiboku design, this will take 5 to 20 years.

Important is probably not to start growing branches too early. This seems to lead to reverse taper or too big branches. Just grow the trunk, nothing else.

This site is in Japanese, but shows pictures:
http://nao-k.jp/satuki/sitate/sitate.htm

I am not too sure about root pruning and the nebari. I talked a bit with a few Japanese but there doesn't seem to be a special technique besides untangling the roots and keeping them kinda straight when repotting before the roots fatten up too much.
 

BoneSci

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Thanks Harunobu, that is helpful! Just curious why are they grown into a whip first rather than starting with many low branches and then chopping and growing a branch up as a new leader like for other deciduous trees? I'm glad I asked because the latter is how I would have done it. It is because azaleas are not as apially dominant as other deciduous trees?

Thanks again!

Chris
 

Harunobu

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Yes, they are so basally dominant that you won't get a single trunk if you don't do it that way. So you do it the opposite of how you would do a maple. Also helps with less scarring I guess.
Azalea are scrubs and naturally multitrunked.
 
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