First post. Finally resigning that I need help!

[ProPilot04]

Hey all:

I've ghosted on here for about 2 years, but it's time to ask all my idiotic questions so that I can get my plants out of trouble.

First up, I was gifted I very nice Chinese elm. We're in southern Wisconsin (recently) and the trees were typically kept outdoors until it gets cold, and then I move them essentially to the other side of the glass into our 3 season room (which is enclosed, but not heated)

The elm did great last year, but late in winter the leaves browned over and didn't drop. At first I was optimistic that this was it's winter/spring leaf exchange, but since it's currently July, and no leaves, it was something else.

I gave it enough time where I felt the tree had it's chance, but I didn't want it to just die away. So at the end of May, with no leaves still, but with a still green cambium throughout, I began intervening.

I trimmed very very few branches at all levels of the tree. They showed green all the way throughout. So I ceased trimming. I pulled the tree from it's soil and gave it a peroxide bath. The roots looked "good" but they weren't all white, didn't smell weird or anything. Regardless, I repotted it in a much more well draining, sort of stoney soil (Hoffman bonsai soil mix). And restricted it's water to a tsp of hydrogen peroxide to a cup of water for the first week, and then once a week thereafter, with a shower of water as needed based on temps/wx/etc.

The tree has sprouted new growth out of a very low eye that's got to be a very old cut. This growth has exploded out now, and I see an additional new growth popping up out of a high root. Still nothing on the rest of the tree.

I have a number of theories, and questions. But in short... I'm interested in what people here think.

This is a current photo. And one from when I began the intervention.

 

[sorce]

Glass stops the breeze which is a necessary indicator of what is to come.

Welcome to Crazy!

Without that signal, a clock resets, but resets to when?

You may have to fly the tree over the Bermuda triangle to find out!

Further, a bath in peroxide will kill all the functioning bacteria that can convert any "organic" (read, cheap or free) fertilizer to a tree useful form, so you are also resigning to a life of chemical fertilizer, wasting money and destroying your favorite fishing hole.

Bonus?
A better design can come of this "mishap".
Welcome it!

Sorce

 

[ShadyStump]

I've ghosted on here for about 2 years

Welcome to the land of the living!

Does it get cold enough in there that the tree goes completely dormant- losing all it's leaves, and regrowing new in the spring- for at least good month? Chinese elms are often sold as indoor trees because it's possible, but they don't like it and don't usually last long if you do.

 

[ProPilot04]

Yes definitely. In fact, one of my concerns is that it actually got TOO cold in there and that's what actually knocked the tree out.

 

[ShadyStump]

That's entirely possible in Wisconsin. Do you know just how cold it got in there? We usually like to set the trees on the floor/ground where the thermal mass can help moderate temperature extremes around the roots. Don't suppose you did that, or was it on a table or something? Mentioning it because the roots may have frozen, essentially giving you the same effect as if you had root rot. If that's the case, now the tree is trying to start anew from it's energy reserves.

Either way, I don't suspect the rest of three will recover if it hasn't already. Focus on building up energy and health in whatever new growth you get now. I wouldn't cut anything at all off this year. Just let it grow.

Full disclosure: I have no first hand experience with Chinese elms, but I've found ways to kill American and Siberian elms, and Chinese can become a very hot topic around here.

 

[rockm]

Another thing that can have a huge impact on overwintering is moisture. Trees need to be watered in storage for the winter. This is particularly true of trees overwintered under a roof--like in an unheated garage and/or unheated room in/part of a house. Drying out leaves the roots vulnerable to even shallow freezes, as water acts as a kind of insulator for them. Without that moisture around the roots, they freeze quickly and thoroughly. The sudden browning and dropping of the leaves says to me it either dried out or got too cold--and by too cold I mean below 15 F or so--which is pretty freaking cold for a room in the house, which is why I suspect this tree's roots dried out, THEN got frozen a bit...

That cluster of growth indicates that the entire top above that growth is dead. Discolored, shrinking bark is a sign the cambium beneath the bark is dead. The boundary where the trunk turns reddish above the more green trunk is the demarcation line. You should keep a close eye on this one for next winter. It's roots are probably mostly dead too at this point. That new growth isn't the strongest...

 

[ProPilot04]

Indeed I do as I track the temp year round. The lowest temp was about 15 degrees f. Which was 30 or 40 degrees warmer than outdoors. The trees were indeed on the ground.

I'm of the same opinion in that the roots probably froze.

A few things to just reiterate. The cambium is green throughout the entire tree. All the way up and to it's extremities. The tree did get watered throughout the winter. The 3 season room that it's in is not climate controlled in any way, but it's basically a roof with floor to ceiling windows facing north, east and south. Plenty of sun.

I would like advice on how I can winter both this tree, and future trees though...

Additionally, are there any other interventions you suggest for this tree currently?

 

[rockm]

Indeed I do as I track the temp year round. The lowest temp was about 15 degrees f. Which was 30 or 40 degrees warmer than outdoors. The trees were indeed on the ground.

I'm of the same opinion in that the roots probably froze.

A few things to just reiterate. The cambium is green throughout the entire tree. All the way up and to it's extremities. The tree did get watered throughout the winter. The 3 season room that it's in is not climate controlled in any way, but it's basically a roof with floor to ceiling windows facing north, east and south. Plenty of sun.

I would like advice on how I can winter both this tree, and future trees though...

Additionally, are there any other interventions you suggest for this tree currently?

The cambium is NOT green through the entire tree. There is a clear "dead zone" line and the upper trunk of the tree has a reddish cast of dead elm..."Green" can be misleading. There may indeed be green tissue left, but what shade of green? If it's more olive drab, than lime green, the tissue is dead. Sudden death of twigs and branches can leave that kind of drab green behind. Show us a photo of the 'green' portion of the upper trunk...

The question is not really how cold this tree got, but HOW WARM did the room get over the winter? Above 34 for three or four days and the tree may have broken dormancy, only to be crushed by freezing--deciduous trees lose 99 percent of their ability to withstand freezing after they begin growing (and growing doesn't necessarily involve substantial new growth just breaking buds that can easily go unnoticed. The trick in overwintering is to keep the dormant tree as cold as possible for as long as possible, NOT to keep it "warm" Chinese Elms are tough trees. I've overwintered some here in Va. outside under mulch through regular sustained temps in the single digits or in some rare years below zero. 15 degrees won't kill a protected, well watered Chinese Elm in my experience.

 

[ProPilot04]

Ah, it appears a correction is in order. I can say that the cambium WAS indeed green throughout back in May. I can even see the spots where I scratch checked the trunk. But it's definitely not now, I just went to check. It is, as you've said, obviously dead at the line indicated.

I suppose the same questions apply from my previous post...

Really appreciate the assistance crew!

 

[ShadyStump]

I agree with @rockm at this point, and he's MUCH more experienced than I am.
A spring thaw that kicked the temperatures in your room up to 40ish for a week or two, then dropped in a sudden freeze again could very easily do something like this.

I say you're course of action is basically the same, though, only you can cut back the dead portions all you want.

I know @HorseloverFat is in Wisconsin near the lake. He might have some tips on overwintering in the climate. There are a couple other members here in the region, but I can't recall exactly who at the moment.

 

[ProPilot04]

Yeah this checks out for this last season for sure.

Regarding trimming it back... To what extent? Trimming exterior secondary branches obviously. Trimming the primary branches would seem logical too, but my logic would also suggest to just cut the actual trunk where it's dead... This though seems extreme to me.

 

[ShadyStump]

If it's dead, it's dead, and it ain't coming back.
I would cut just above the living section to avoid damaging any live tissue, but you're also not in a rush. Maybe remove some of the dead bark to eliminate food for fungus and mold, but you don't necessarily have to cut it back until you have a new design in mind. Leaving some dead wood might even be part of that design.

 

[ProPilot04]

If it's dead, it's dead, and it ain't coming back.
I would cut just above the living section to avoid damaging any live tissue, but you're also not in a rush. Maybe remove some of the dead bark to eliminate food for fungus and mold, but you don't necessarily have to cut it back until you have a new design in mind. Leaving some dead wood might even be part of that design.

Lol man I was actually thinking about this the whole time... If there's one thing in this hobby that I'm NOT bad at, it's woodworking!

 

[rockm]

Yeah this checks out for this last season for sure.

Regarding trimming it back... To what extent? Trimming exterior secondary branches obviously. Trimming the primary branches would seem logical too, but my logic would also suggest to just cut the actual trunk where it's dead... This though seems extreme to me.

You're going to have to chop back underneath the dead border on the trunk. There will be no further growth on any of the dead stuff. I'd chop it at the line where the trunk is green and the trunk is reddish. Yeah, most of the tree will be gone.. I wouldn't go any lower. That cut would give the living trunk a chance to grow above all the new buds. May or may not happen. Chopping it closer to the new growth could kill the new growth off.

SEAL THE CHOP. important if you don't want further dieback on the trunk from moisture loss.

 

[ProPilot04]

You're going to have to chop back underneath the dead border on the trunk. There will be no further growth on any of the dead stuff. I'd chop it at the line where the trunk is green and the trunk is reddish. Yeah, most of the tree will be gone.. I wouldn't go any lower. That cut would give the living trunk a chance to grow above all the new buds. May or may not happen. Chopping it closer to the new growth could kill the new growth off.

SEAL THE CHOP. important if you don't want further dieback on the trunk from moisture loss.

Cool, any recommendations on what to seal it with?

 

[rockm]

Cool, any recommendations on what to seal it with?

You can probably get away with plain old Elmer's Wood Glue. Smear generous amounts on the cut. Let it dry to clear. Unfortunately, rain can dissolve it a bit, or a lot...HVAC duct seal putty will also work (sold at big box stores in the electrical section).

If you really want it to be optimal, get prepared bonsai sealant, not the putty kind. The toothpaste textured kind.

https://www.amazon.com/New-Kiyonal-Bonsai-Pruning-Compound/dp/B00DJM7TMI/ref=asc_df_B00DJM7TMI/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=242044563503&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9552054740790613040&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9008141&hvtargid=pla-406164338113&psc=1

People will tell you that sealing pruning wounds isn't necessary--for the most part, I agree. While trees can heal without it, it can provide a bit f extra protection against drying out. Cambium drying out can kill off tissue just below the cut, that die off can be light or quite severe depending on weather conditions --low humidity/direct sunlight, etc.

 

[ShadyStump]

I've used plumber's putty. It doesn't stick to the wood the greatest, but by the time it falls off the tree has closed up the wound enough to not die back further.