First shohin Trident maple and some questions...

[Katie0317]

I got my first Trident maple, a shohin and have some questions. I'd been looking for one for quite a while.

I'm in central Florida and have never seen a TM in landscaping here. An hour or two north people grow them as bonsai but not as much in the Orlando area. t's getting full sun in the morning and shade in the afternoon. It's supposed to hit 100 degrees tomorrow and it's hot out. I'll be watering twice a day.

What can I do to reduce the leaves even more?

What do those of you with TM shohin trees do that you feel contributes most to their success?

Why and when do you add fish emulsion to your deciduous trees?

What do you do differently with your shohin trees that's different than how you manage your other trees?

OOPS...i made a mistake. The first picture is the back and the second the front.

Thanks for any tips you have.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I'll try to get this rolling. First off, cool tree and nice choice.

What can I do to reduce the leaves even more?

As you ramify the branches, the leaves should reduce. Leaves can also be defoliated for reduction.

Why and when do you add fish emulsion to your deciduous trees?

I don't personally use this, but it is just one of many fertilizer choices. Smells horrible, but works very well. Some folks who use solid fertilizer will hit their trees maybe once a week with some of the fish juice to give the trees another kick. The emulsion will have a specific NPK ratio and is liquid for faster uptake

What do you do differently with your shohin trees that's different than how you manage your other trees?

Not particularly sure I do anything different. For me, it's simply a matter of obtaining proper scale. Shohin are just smaller.


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[Katie0317]

I'll try to get this rolling. First off, cool tree and nice choice.


As you ramify the branches, the leaves should reduce. Leaves can also be defoliated for reduction.


I don't personally use this, but it is just one of many fertilizer choices. Smells horrible, but works very well. Some folks who use solid fertilizer will hit their trees maybe once a week with some of the fish juice to give the trees another kick. The emulsion will have a specific NPK ratio and is liquid for faster uptake

Not particularly sure I do anything different. For me, it's simply a matter of obtaining proper scale. Shohin are just smaller.


.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas.

The tree was at World Bonsai Day at D & L nursery. Hundreds of people turned out and I knew there would be far more new trees than people so we got up early and made the almost 2 hour drive to so we could see the trees before they got picked over.

I grabbed this tree and another tree that I like just as much. I'd been hunting for a Trident maple and they're not easy to find. Turns out this one was sold back to the nursery owner. The previous owner is an experienced bonsai grower but is close to 90 and has had health problems. He sold some of his trees back to the nursery because he can't care for them. This was one of his trees. I want to do right for this tree.

Last year I chopped my water jasmine tree trunk so it would be shohin sized. The leaves started coming back strong and I've worked daily to pinch stems and leaves to reduce the leaf size and it's worked. I'm just not sure how to proceed with a Trident maple.

I measured the trunk and it's just under 5 inches.

When do you defoliate your Trident if you have one?

I've been fortunate to be able to take workshops with some good teachers but sometimes they're crowded. I think it would help if I did a few hours of private sessions. The hourly rate isn't much higher than a workshop and my husband said, "I think we'd get more out of a private session than we've gotten from all the workshops combined." I think that's true and we're at that point in our development. The workshops have been so helpful and we'll continue with them.

I get a lot from reading and BN is great for that.

Thanks for any tips from people growing Tridents.

 

[sorce]

It's important to note, that with a shohin tree, there is no periferal, the entire tree can be viewed at once, this is what automatically amplifies flaws.

I think most, like 70% of people, don't pay enough attention to small fixable details with large trees, due to impatience alone.
The problem from this is only amplified the smaller you get.

"Faster Further Future Vision".

Does this tree actually have 3 branches coming from one spot?

I think that may be the difficulty, made more difficult by the fact you are in an attempt to honor the previous owner.
This makes it much harder to make moves that set the tree back 8 steps, when it needs it to move it forward appropriately, even more appropriately than the previous owner.

In Florida, I wouldn't be hesitant.....make it great.

Laser Focus. I think that contributes most to their success.

Sorce

 

[Shibui]

What can I do to reduce the leaves even more?

Time is the single biggest factor. Time to increase ramification. More shoots on same sized tree = more leaves. More leaves on same sized tree = smaller leaves.
Nutrition also contributes to leaf size. High N fert produces shoots with longer internodes and larger leaves. Reduced fert helps reduce leaves but can also impact tree health.
Defoliating reduces tree food stores and can result in reduced leaf size but that is a stress response. Take care to ensure tree is healthy before defoliation. Defoliation also stimulates new shoots to grow = more ramification = smaller leaves but take care not to over stress your tree.
Partial defoliation can be useful for a number of purposes. Snip off a few largest leaves each week but leave the majority of leaves to feed the tree. Seems to be less stressful than full defoliation.

What do those of you with TM shohin trees do that you feel contributes most to their success?

Success keeping shohin alive:
Gravel trays are the single most effective way to get my smaller trees through summer. Trays hold water but pots sit above water on gravel/sand. Evaporation cools the air and the plant and results in less water needs. Trident roots will grow out through drain holes and into water below to give the trees even better water access in hot weather.
Shade is important to reduce water needs.
Repotting annually. Small pots have little space for root growth. By the second summer there's no space for water and air and trees suffer. Shohin have been healthier since annual repotting.

Successful styling:
Short internodes are crucial. Real attention to pruning and trimming.
Getting branches into smaller space without overcrowding????

Why and when do you add fish emulsion to your deciduous trees?

I don't usually use fish emulsion either but I do use liquid fertilizer. Regardless of what sort, Fert is important for small pots. Frequent watering leaches soluble nutrients quickly. Replacing regularly helps maintain tree health. Apply fert every 3-4 weeks through growing season - whenever trees have leaves. Developing trees need more fert more often to fuel growth and development. Reduce amount and/or frequency for older, better ramified trees.

 

[AnutterBonsai]

great advice here. I have a tiny shohin as well, still in its development though. so this was good to read. great tree

 

[rockm]

Contrary to popular belief, defoliation's primary job is NOT to reduce leaf size. It is to increase twig ramification, which CAN produce smaller leaves OVER TIME.

Getting small leaves depends on a few things in general, higher light, lower N in fertilizers and attention to pruning. Constant nipping of new shoots to one or two sets of leaves can help push more buds and increase ramification.

Another thing is lowering the Nitrogen in fertilizers you use. Organics tend to have N in abundance. N drives shoot elongation, fueling extension shoots. You can seek out lower N fertilizers like Peter's Peat Lite (20-10-20) and use it every week. Skip the fish emulsion. It's not all that great and it smells really bad.

 

[Katie0317]

Thanks all for the info and ideas,

@Shibui, what is your environment like is Austrailia? Where I live it's very tropical and the humidity is extremely high. I'm not sure a humidity tray would be helpful in my environment. Would like to hear what yours is like.

I've had good luck with removing new leaves and shoots and I need to spend time just looking at this tree to see if there is crowding anywhere. It was trimmed before I got it. I can see fresh cuts.

I use Dyna-Gro and BioGold fertilizer and both have a fairly low N content..About 5.

Am coming to believe that most of us play only a part in a trees life before it gets passed to another person to continue its development. The person that grows it sells it and that person develops it to a certain point before it moves on to the next person. Each puts his/her abilities to work until for whatever reason it gets passed to the next person. I remember watching the owner of this tree in workshops and he gave a tremendous amount of consideration to other peoples trees. Watching him was an education so owning one of his trees is somewhat ironic for me.

My main goal is to keep it healthy and small. I know the trunk will change over time and I look forward to seeing that. In the short time I've been doing bonsai I can see changes in my trees and it surprises me how it sort of sneaks up. They seem to look the same for a long time then suddenly I see how they've changed.

I may hold off on the fish emulsion before trying it. I use various fertilizers and ingredients on my roses and orchids and have a system that works. I'm happy with the Biogold and Dyna-Gro but am open to suggestions.

As for defoliation it's something I would need to know more about before trying it. If anyone does it on a regular basis I'd like to hear about it!

Thanks again.

 

[Shibui]

@Shibui, what is your environment like is Austrailia? Where I live it's very tropical and the humidity is extremely high. I'm not sure a humidity tray would be helpful in my environment. Would like to hear what yours is like.

My area is hot and dry so humidity tray is essential to get smaller trees through hot summer days.
Florida hot, high humidity may allow you to manage without trays. Only time will tell. Just be aware that these can be useful if you find pots get too dry too quick.

I may hold off on the fish emulsion before trying it. I use various fertilizers and ingredients on my roses and orchids and have a system that works. I'm happy with the Biogold and Dyna-Gro but am open to suggestions.

Fertilizer is fertilizer in most cases. Most modern fert have all the nutrients and micros needed for growth just in slightly different amounts so does not really matter which you choose as plants can pick and choose what they want/need to some extent. Fish emulsion is OK, Biogold is OK, other ferts are OK too.

As for defoliation it's something I would need to know more about before trying it. If anyone does it on a regular basis I'd like to hear about it!

I defoliate regularly but not as popularly believed by beginners.
Mostly I use partial defoliation - On smaller bonsai just remove largest leaves while still leaving plenty of healthy leaves to continue food production. On larger trees I'll sometimes removed damaged leaves while leaving plenty of leaves for food production. Once or twice a year I remove dense outer leaves to allow sun to reach inner shoots to keep them healthy. For trees with over strong apex I defoliate the stronger upper section while leaving lower branches with leaves. This helps balance strength and helps weaker branches get stronger. Selective defoliation can help thinner branches catch up to stronger ones on the same tree.
Occasionally I fully defoliate really strong species but only for very healthy trees and for specific purposes. Ficus respond well to full defoliation.
@Dav4 has already reiterated that defoliation is NOT to directly reduce leaf size.
Defoliation is a tool for bonsai but does weaken trees. Use only for specific purposes when you know what the implications are.

 

[yashu]

Do you have any photos of the tree in winter silhouette? You might consider abrading the bark on the edges of the chop scar to encourage heal over.

 

[Katie0317]

Do you have any photos of the tree in winter silhouette? You might consider abrading the bark on the edges of the chop scar to encourage heal over.

On the lower left? That's not a chop scar. Look closely, it's a combination of light and shade. No, I don't have a photo of it in winter because I just got the tree but I'm looking forward to seeing it defoliated after the summer. I'll share a photo then.

Btw, the chop scar is at the very top of the trunk, under the canopy. I'd have to go look to be certain of where it is exactly, but I can't see it on the trunk without looking for it.

 

[yashu]

On the lower left? That's not a chop scar. Look closely, it's a combination of light and shade. No, I don't have a photo of it in winter because I just got the tree but I'm looking forward to seeing it defoliated after the summer. I'll share a photo then.

Btw, the chop scar is at the very top of the trunk, under the canopy. I'd have to go look to be certain of where it is exactly, but I can't see it on the trunk without looking for it.

Ha! My bad. The combination of resolution and my presbyopia has that definitely looking like a chop.

 

[yashu]

That got me good

 

[Shibui]

That got me good

Me too. I would have sworn that was a scar from an earlier trunk chop. Must be the Florida light

 

[yashu]

Me too. I would have sworn that was a scar from an earlier trunk chop. Must be the Florida light

Well I feel better now that it’s not just me

 

[Katie0317]

@yashu @Shibui Absolutely my fault for shooting with the sun overhead. I'll reshoot it tomorrow morning or late afternoon. It's raining here now. I would have thought the same thing. Am sorry for the confusion.

Reading is so helpful when you get a new tree. Sometimes it's just a small detail. I learned I can pinch leaves and the stems will fall off on their own at a later date. Such a very small detail but good to know because I don't keep my scissors on me when I'm out watering. It's what I do with my water jasmine but wasn't sure it was correct with a deciduous tree.

Also I read @Brian Van Fleet 's: The 2010 Bonsainut Maple Project

This should be required reading for anyone who's acquired a Trident or wants to grow one. Well documented and a great how-to on how to grow a shohin Trident bonsai. Beautiful nebari and fluting on the trunk. Give it a read.

 

[yashu]

@yashu @Shibui Absolutely my fault for shooting with the sun overhead. I'll reshoot it tomorrow morning or late afternoon. It's raining here now. I would have thought the same thing. Am sorry for the confusion.

Reading is so helpful when you get a new tree. Sometimes it's just a small detail. I learned I can pinch leaves and the stems will fall off on their own at a later date. Such a very small detail but good to know because I don't keep my scissors on me when I'm out watering. It's what I do with my water jasmine but wasn't sure it was correct with a deciduous tree.

Also I read @Brian Van Fleet 's: The 2010 Bonsainut Maple Project

This should be required reading for anyone who's acquired a Trident or wants to grow one. Well documented and a great how-to on how to grow a shohin Trident bonsai. Beautiful nebari and fluting on the trunk. Give it a read.

No need for apologies here!

 

[Katie0317]

Here's a closeup of the chop mark and it is where the shadow was. TBH, I hadn't really noticed it. It's healed over well. I cut a few leaves away to show it better.

 

[Katie0317]

@Shibui I went outside yesterday and my TM had dozens of new tender clusters of tiny leaves. I pinched them off. Later I was reading about someone talking with Boon and the upshot of the conversation was that pinching the leaves causes the branches to grow with lumps and bumps rather than nice and smooth.

I think you were a part of the conversation on that thread? Which is it...Do I let them run and then cut them off? I'm glad I read that when I did. I'm not going to pinch anymore new leaves but I want to make sure I understand it correctly. Thanks for sharing about how to handle new growth and anyone else who has experience with this... please share. Thanks.

 

[Shibui]

TM had dozens of new tender clusters of tiny leaves. I pinched them off.

New tender clusters of new leaves could mean many things?? so it is hard o give meaningful advice.

I treat all my tridents pretty much the same and still have some with lumps and some without so I suspect there may be individuals that are more prone to lumpiness than others.
This small trident Root over rock is a case in point. Swelling probably started by having a couple of branches too close in early development but despite removing some the bulge continues to grow faster than the trunk. Does not happen with other trees to the same extent as this particular individual


I certainly try to remove any unwanted new shoots as soon as possible. The larger they get the larger the cuts after removal and the more lumpy the results after healing.
Clusters of shoots growing close together also cause local thickening quite quickly so removing unwanted shoots when they are tiny should stop that thickening. Even one summer is sometimes enough to start unwanted thickening so I now search through leaves to find and destroy unwanted shoots a number of times each summer.
Everything is multiplied in shohin so even greater care needed to grow and maintain good shohin.