First TM wiring, look ok?

[GailC]

I've been ignoring this maple since I got it. Finally decided to do something with it. Cut off the perfectly straight larger trunk and wired most of the branches.

Now I'm concerned its too weepy looking. What does everyone else think? I just don't know how to add movement and bring the branches low without it looking like this.

I know many will be trimmed away in the future, just don't want to set a permanent branch wrong.

Excuse my terrible wiring, still learning and some of the branches are tiny.

 

[Shibui]

The wiring seems to be reasonably neat and mostly effective. Well done.
You have cut off a perfectly straight trunk and replaced it with what appears to be a perfectly straight trunk. You now have good taper from the base to the first section but then little taper and very straight trunk thereafter.
Maybe you still plan to reduce the trunk and make some bends later? Maybe you are happy with the straight trunk?
I agree with your assessment of the new branches. They appear to jut have random bends. Bonsai is meant to be viewed by humans and humans expect some sort of form, harmony and flow. Random bends and no recognizable flow make the viewer uneasy so to make it look better you probably need to introduce some sort of theme and direction - all the branches look similar.
Another part of the issue may be the dichotomy between the straight trunk and the wildly bending branches. Our minds just cannot comprehend why there is a difference. We expect a straight trunked tree to have relatively straight branches. Wild, contorted branches would usually be seen on a trunk that was subject to the same natural forces and therefore also twisted and bent.
We don't see many really old deciduous trees over here but I believe that most do not have wildly bending branches. They typically flow out and up from the trunk then (lower branches) curve downward with the tips sweeping upward a little at the ends.
Many maples seem to just have branches that grow up and out to form a canopy. To recreate that in a bonsai usually requires pruning the stock tree hard and regrowing all the branches from the shoots that sprout from the trunk or from any well placed branches that have been shortened.

With your tree, a lot will depend on the final design you have in mind so maybe you could describe or better still do a rough drawing of the tree you'd like to see.

 

[Tieball]

This is all with my thought process. It’s a little difficult to see in the photo where everything is connected. Anyway, what I like to do in white line directions of branches, crossings, and height manners of branches. I do this so I can candidly see what I’m doing and see if it makes sense.

I see some confusion in your tree. At least from what I can see. Branches to high up seem to bend down while others below appear to bolt upright. It’s difficult for me to imagine branches that high bending down that low. Then. A second and a third trunk section bolt straight upward. All the branch curves...but....straight trunk sections. The second and third trunk sections in reality would have been branches to start and would have curves...like the others.

I would have probably let the entire top growth just grow wildly to thicken the section transitions. And then chop again probably midway up the second section making most of the bent branches irrelevant.

But in the end....I can’t see what you see in front of you. You might just draw some white lines yourself and see where directions are going.

 

[GailC]

Thanks for the advice. The small trunk isn't actually straight, just looks like it from that angle. I'm still up in the air on a front for this.

I redid some of the branching, removing some of the more weird random wiggles. Tried to do more of a up sweeping type style but I just didn't like it. Its not as weeping but still a bit chaotic.

I'll be doing a hard trim once it leaf's out and I know the roots have recovered from their trim.

Idk, maybe I should just go full on fairy forest with this, make everyone hate it.

 

[sorce]

This has a nice lower trunk.

I wouldn't waste much time doing much more than wiring non keeper stuff out of the way.
I think this green is the only keeper stuff, red the sacrifice, to be wired away for years while it adds girth to that next segment.

In the mean time, contemplate wether you want to make a traditional Japanese Deciduous tree, or a WP type, more natural up and out tree.
These keeper parts and my personal preference, not to mention the trees needs, seem to favor up and out.

Another concern I have is the high root, see how to lower it into the soil with an angle change makes the wound more visible and the next segment almost too far forward?

I wonder if bending that next segment further back over the wound now is possible, so you can tilt it and get that root in the soil.

Maybe consider root grafts.

This trunk has mad potential, I love the shape.

Sorce

 

[GailC]

@sorce
I was considering chopping off what you marked in red, I'm just concerned I won't get any back budding and be left with a naked stump.

When I first got this, it was quite tall and straight, removed the top that first year and got no back budding down low.

If I was confident it would back bud, I would hard chop and go for a broom. Thats still a option I guess, depends on how it does this year.

It also has a large cavity in back and no nabari to speak of. I'd actually like to remove most of that large root, maybe next year.

I'm scared to try root grafts. I don't really understand them and tridents aren't the best choice for this area, I'm not sure if I want to put that much effort into it.

This the other side. Trying to encourage the hole to close but with no branches down low, its going really slow.

Top shot to show the branches I moved over the wound. Might have broke one at the trunk though, you can see the cut paste.

 

[sorce]

Yeah....I'd just let it grow for a while!

Sorce

 

[Tieball]

Yeah....I'd just let it grow for a while! Sorce

I agree with this. The tree has challenges. Lots. Letting it grow wildly may offer different directions, or...actually a direction, as you view it in the future in the future. I'd set it aside and focus on other trees. I’d ignore some more. If through ignored growth the trunk gets massively thicker you may have an interesting opportunity to carve a shorter height tree.

 

[LanceMac10]

eehh….this in the house....eehh….wire ain't in the rights...eehh...sack a' @sorce for you and me to roll...eeaaeehh….


should might otta' not be indoors, wire?...meh, material a ways off from anything that'll be there in 6....me, mike & fetty in the traphouse

 

[GailC]

It was outdoors until we had a bad cold snap and I had to bring it in. I just don't have a place for proper winter storage for it.
I shouldn't have even got it, didn't know they couldn't take the extreme cold.
Its been a pain in the ass since it arrived and found the cavity and straight down roots.

It would be a long while before I could do any carving, its only a 1.5 inch or so at the base.

 

[Shibui]

The small trunk isn't actually straight, just looks like it from that angle

If the trunk looks straight from your chosen front viewing angle then the trunk is effectively straight. In order to show a curved trunk you need to choose a front that shows the trunk movement. Maybe look at other spots around the tree to get a better view of the trunk.

Don't discount the side where the old scar shows. It would be possible to make a feature of that lower cavity and maybe even connect it to the new cut above with a hollowed out trunk but I suspect you really want a traditional bonsai maple with no scars.

Tridents grow roots really fast so it would e possible to grow a whole new set of roots that would allow you to change the planting angle or viewing point. That would probably only take a couple of years and is often faster than grafting new roots. You could even layer above the old scar if you really can't stand it.

Sorce's cut makes a lot of sense. It will give you a better trunk movement and better taper. The individual sections of the trunk will also be better - a little shorter from each bend. It may seem like cutting too far but tridents are usually quick to grow back and develop again.

 

[Tieball]

It would be a long while before I could do any carving, its only a 1.5 inch or so at the base.

And a good reason, if it were my tree, to just let it grow...in a container that lets the roots spread away. Let nature take care of some of the faults.

I think.....that you’ll need to let that first top section grow and thicken. I see a rather large scar on one side...buds wont develop there. On the other side there doesn’t seem to anything below that chop point. I have a Hornbeam like this. The only branch developing areas are only above the chop. My tree just grows in a large container now and is very slow to thicken the second section. I’ve considered the burn pile...but it’s not in my way so it just grows with little of no care....ignored. In my case, I doubt that the tree will ever be anything worthwhile but it might be something better than nothing with a lot of carving.

I generally agree with an @sorce chop....but I'd still let it grow and simply begin to wire and train only that very lowest branch and chop above that (I lined it in yellow). That is the keeper branch to me. Lower than what was indicated. I let the top grow wild to expedite the closing of that chop scar. Once that’s closed the second section should be fairly thick.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Something missing looks like tree was cut below a graft line and is graft stock growing now?

 

[GailC]

Something missing looks like tree was cut below a graft line and is graft stock growing now?

No, its not a grafted tree.

 

[Adair M]

Let’s take a step back...

Deciduous trees like tridents are not wired like conifers. (Or, perhaps I should say that there are better alternatives than wiring them like conifers...)

They’re best developed by choosing buds and shoots, letting them grow out, and cutting them back. Wire can be used to direct the growth of very young shoots to 1) direct the growth and 2) put in movement. A trident shoot will grow out straight, and if you want any movement between internodes, it has to be made using wire.

This whole process was extensively discussed in Markyscott’s excellent thread “Ebihara Maples”, so there’s no need to rehash it all here. That thread has photos and links to other documents that describe trident development in detail.

For this tree, I think the wire is the wrong approach. A better way would be to heavily cut back, and get new buds to come off the trunk, and off the primary branches close to the trunk. Yes, pretty much completely start over! It’s faster than you think!

 

[River's Edge]

It was outdoors until we had a bad cold snap and I had to bring it in. I just don't have a place for proper winter storage for it.
I shouldn't have even got it, didn't know they couldn't take the extreme cold.
Its been a pain in the ass since it arrived and found the cavity and straight down roots.

It would be a long while before I could do any carving, its only a 1.5 inch or so at the base.

The size and shape is great for a start and first chop, let it grow out. No concerns about wiring or styling at this point. Several more grow out and chops to go before that point. Will be able to develop branching, movement and style after that. Appears to be good quality basic three year old material to start with. I would remove the wire and focus on allowing it to grow freely between cutbacks.
Using this approach will develop the trunk faster, heal larger scars quicker and give an overall stronger tree to work with later on. I would also work with the roots annually to improve nebari structure and prepare for life in a bonsai pot. Tridents are vigorous and should respond well particularily at this age and stage of development.

 

[GailC]

Since the consensus is to let it grow, I took off the wire and will just let it run.
@Tieball I like your proposed chop but there are no branches below that. The lowest branch would be the one on the left of sorces lines.

@Shibui How to best regrow roots? I replanted this two years ago after a heavy root prune and all it did was grow more roots down low and thicken that big ugly one.
I though about a tight wire around the base but there is very little meat between the cavity and bottom of the tree.

@Adair M If I cut back to just a stump to start over as a broom, when should this happen? Will it survive if I remove all branches?

I know everyone wants it to get bigger/thicker but I'm really wanting this to be a miniture sized one or at least pretty small.

 

[Adair M]

Since the consensus is to let it grow, I took off the wire and will just let it run.
@Tieball I like your proposed chop but there are no branches below that. The lowest branch would be the one on the left of sorces lines.

@Shibui How to best regrow roots? I replanted this two years ago after a heavy root prune and all it did was grow more roots down low and thicken that big ugly one.
I though about a tight wire around the base but there is very little meat between the cavity and bottom of the tree.

@Adair M If I cut back to just a stump to start over as a broom, when should this happen? Will it survive if I remove all branches?

I know everyone wants it to get bigger/thicker but I'm really wanting this to be a miniture sized one or at least pretty small.

Yes, it should survive if you cut off all the branches, and/or cut the existing branches back hard. People do “trunk chops” on tridents all the time!

 

[Shibui]

How to best regrow roots? I replanted this two years ago after a heavy root prune and all it did was grow more roots down low and thicken that big ugly one.

Was that a heavy root prune by your standards or a heavy root prune by trident maple standards? I routinely cut roots right back to stumps about as long as the root is thick.

My tridents grow new roots from the cut ends of any roots. That means you must cut right back to where you want the new roots to start. No point cutting long and hoping it will grow some new roots further back along the length of the root. It just doesn't work like that.

Some photos to show what I mean:



This one was wild in the garden. That was its first root prune.


These 2 show 1 year after pruning trident roots hard. Note all the new white roots growing from where the roots were cut the year before.

My climate is relatively mild but you should still be able to cut trident roots like this in spring over there and expect a similar response.

 

[penumbra]

As suggested by others, chop it, put in in the ground, let it grow. Right now it looks like a confused octopus.