First wiring job - Eastern Red Cedar

Adair M

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I am new to post here but in my experience the journey is more significant than the destination.
Yes, but if the journey is filled with frustration, and disappointment, will you want to continue to keep making the effort? Bonsai is difficult enough to learn even with excellent starter material. Why start with something that’s known to yield poor results?

How would you know if your poor results were from it being ERC or your poor technique? If, instead, you spent a couple years working with shimpaku, procumbens, Atlas Cedar, etc, and built up a solid foundation, THEN you could experiment with ERC and know you’re not just making rookie mistakes.

I feel the same way about Eastern White Pine.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Yes, but if the journey is filled with frustration, and disappointment, will you want to continue to keep making the effort? Bonsai is difficult enough to learn even with excellent starter material. Why start with something that’s known to yield poor results?

How would you know if your poor results were from it being ERC or your poor technique? If, instead, you spent a couple years working with shimpaku, procumbens, Atlas Cedar, etc, and built up a solid foundation, THEN you could experiment with ERC and know you’re not just making rookie mistakes.

I feel the same way about Eastern White Pine.
AMEN.
 

Vance Wood

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I get it, sir. I am new here. I am new as a practitioner of bonsai too. However he thing about art is that it is truly in the eye of the beholder. So I can say that I’ve seen a few examples of striking ERC cedar. I live amongst them so I know what they look like in the wild as well.

As with any art or craft or practice whatever you may, there are different philosophies included in bonsai. The one I’m developing is a patient one. I’m ok with yielding a decent example of ERC over a period of 40 years. When people say starting from seed is a waste of time, I just don’t agree. From my standpoint, I think people who use the phrase “waste of time” are missing the point of bonsai. But hey, in my life time I’m ok with creating only a handful of show worthy trees.
Understanding that ERC can and do exist in many un-named subspecies and that some of them are better for bonsai than others I have yet to see one other than the one Vance Hanna has developed that comes close to a world class bonsai. Second point; recognizing the beauty of a natural tree and translating that wow factor into a recognizable bonsai is a stretch to probable failure. I love the California Horse Chestnut and if it were possible, and if the leaves would reduce and a few other "IFS" I think it would make a beautiful bonsai IF IF IF IF.
 

Lou T

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Rafts are cool. I’m working on a Colorado Blue Spruce raft. Probably got stepped on by an Elk as a young seedling!

What we’re saying is the image you are striving for be be more easily achieved using material that “miniaturizes” well. ERC has coarse foliage. On a big tree, where you stand back to look at it, it all blends in. But on the micro scale, and all bonsai are viewed up close and personsal (micro), the coarseness of the foliage causes the tree to look unbalanced, unkempt.

This problem is not unique to ERC, there are lots of junipers with similiar issues. Some with fantastic trunks collected from the mountains. In those cases, the solution may be to graft on better foliage.

Here is a Utah juniper that in grafting with Kishu foliage:

View attachment 221828

Would I take a Utah seedling and try to grow it out into something? No way. It just wouldn’t develop into anything in my lifetime. Even if it did, it would still have crappy foliage.

Now, if you tell me that you find an incredible raft at the edge of the marsh, and it has these great trunks and gnarly twists and turns... that’s a horse of a different color!

Cool tree. Are those layers hanging there in the nursery pots or the grafted scions you spoke of?
 

Lou T

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Understanding that ERC can and do exist in many un-named subspecies and that some of them are better for bonsai than others I have yet to see one other than the one Vance Hanna has developed that comes close to a world class bonsai. Second point; recognizing the beauty of a natural tree and translating that wow factor into a recognizable bonsai is a stretch to probable failure. I love the California Horse Chestnut and if it were possible, and if the leaves would reduce and a few other "IFS" I think it would make a beautiful bonsai IF IF IF IF.

Off topic but what’s your opinion on Ficus religiosa for bonsai? Grew one from seed and have it in the ground now. Getting ready to lift it in a couple months.

@Adair M
 

Adair M

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Cool tree. Are those layers hanging there in the nursery pots or the grafted scions you spoke of?
Those are little rooted cuttings of Kishu shimpaku in little pots. They are being approach grafted on to the Utah. Eventually, all the native Utah foliage will be jinxed, and the tree will have just the Kishu. I initially placed 5 on back in November 2017. Last summer, I started the process of weaning them off but scraping some cambium off below the grafts. One didn’t make it, so now there are 4. (That’s why we do a lot, not all will take.). I scraped a bit more off last November, and I’ll check them again at the end of January. I may be able to remove the pots then. If not, I’ll wait until June.

The Utah has pale yellow/green foliage. The Kishu is the dark green. That tree also has grafted roots! San Jose juniper was grafted on to supplement the native roots.
 

Lou T

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Those are little rooted cuttings of Kishu shimpaku in little pots. They are being approach grafted on to the Utah. Eventually, all the native Utah foliage will be jinxed, and the tree will have just the Kishu. I initially placed 5 on back in November 2017. Last summer, I started the process of weaning them off but scraping some cambium off below the grafts. One didn’t make it, so now there are 4. (That’s why we do a lot, not all will take.). I scraped a bit more off last November, and I’ll check them again at the end of January. I may be able to remove the pots then. If not, I’ll wait until June.

The Utah has pale yellow/green foliage. The Kishu is the dark green. That tree also has grafted roots! San Jose juniper was grafted on to supplement the native roots.


That’s awesome! There is a whole other realm of use for horticultural practices like grafting included in bonsai I’m excited to learn and practice. Thanks for sharing.
 

Dragon60

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This ever get ID'ed? Looks kind of like Surinam Cherry
That tree is now in another thread - my 'not a contest' tree Ligustrum Privet. Some have said privet is what it is and I found a picture of Chinese privet that the leaves seem to be an exact match.
 

Vance Wood

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Off topic but what’s your opinion on Ficus religiosa for bonsai? Grew one from seed and have it in the ground now. Getting ready to lift it in a couple months.

@Adair M
I am not familiar with that species understanding that I do not court most Ficus species in my environment.
 

coh

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Understanding that ERC can and do exist in many un-named subspecies and that some of them are better for bonsai than others I have yet to see one other than the one Vance Hanna has developed that comes close to a world class bonsai. Second point; recognizing the beauty of a natural tree and translating that wow factor into a recognizable bonsai is a stretch to probable failure. I love the California Horse Chestnut and if it were possible, and if the leaves would reduce and a few other "IFS" I think it would make a beautiful bonsai IF IF IF IF.
Walter Pall has a horse chestnut bonsai, though I don't know which type. We had one growing in front of our house and I never ever thought of that species as a bonsai candidate - until I saw Walter's. Still have no desire to try it but interesting to see one out there. The flower spikes would be pretty impressive...
 

TN_Jim

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if junipers carry strength in foliage -this one is hurtin for certain

I hope you’re not still working on this. If this is just wiring practice and it doesn’t matter, I’m not seeing ideal movement or branch placement. Why, for example is the top a big + ?

It’s likely gonna die if you don’t shelve it, and it may die anyway if not carefully overwintered...?
 

penumbra

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I hope it turns heads at a future date. Don't give up on it in spite of all that has been said. Prove them wrong.
 

Dragon60

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if junipers carry strength in foliage -this one is hurtin for certain

I hope you’re not still working on this. If this is just wiring practice and it doesn’t matter, I’m not seeing ideal movement or branch placement. Why, for example is the top a big + ?

It’s likely gonna die if you don’t shelve it, and it may die anyway if not carefully overwintered...?
It should put out more foliage this spring. Cold is not a real issue so far this winter here in Florida. This was wired as a practice tree. I actually like the sparse look of it, just hope that it does get bigger and stronger over time. And the top will change over time.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Thanks! I hope so too. In fact - I know it will!
How long are you going to give it? 3 years?

The first photo is an air layer of a Shimpaku branch when it was separated in fall 2014. The next photo is the same branch, 3 years later in fall 2017.
A7D5D460-350D-4F09-8026-255D8B75AFA0.jpeg57D50151-E0D3-4C39-8E29-D68624EE9DF6.jpeg
Let’s see what an ERC can do in 3 years. Who wants in? Start a thread.
 

Adair M

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How long are you going to give it? 3 years?

The first photo is an air layer of a Shimpaku branch when it was separated in fall 2014. The next photo is the same branch, 3 years later in fall 2017.
View attachment 222129View attachment 222128
Let’s see what an ERC can do in 3 years. Who wants in? Start a thread.
I went back and looked at the OP’s first image when this thread first started in the end of April.

The tree now has about 1/2 the foliage on it now than it did then. That’s not a good trend.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I went back and looked at the OP’s first image when this thread first started in the end of April.

The tree now has about 1/2 the foliage on it now than it did then. That’s not a good trend.
You are right, but this challenge isn’t directly at the OP here, but anyone who claims ERC can be made into “a beautiful Bonsai specimen” that will “turn heads” and “prove them wrong”. I showed what can be done with a Shimpaku juniper branch in 3 years, and I’m curious to see if anyone can produce a similar result with an ERC.
 

TN_Jim

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You are right, but this challenge isn’t directly at the OP here, but anyone who claims ERC can be made into “a beautiful Bonsai specimen” that will “turn heads” and “prove them wrong”. I showed what can be done with a Shimpaku juniper branch in 3 years, and I’m curious to see if anyone can produce a similar result with an ERC.

I’m making no claims of beauty or head turning, but I would throw my hat in a three year erc experiment/competition with goals of aesthetically pleasing & head turning.

That said erc will very likely not be at all competitive with a Shimpaku of the same time frame (or also likely ever). So if comparing species, why bother?

I see the problem with erc being that they are readily available. The genus is right. There are some stunning ones in the wild. They have beautiful bark. They are generalist species to a degree that can thrive in very endemic arid environments. Also, they smell good.

Because of these things they are so appealing and for all intensive purposes should be ideal. But they are not friendly to what I understand as common or uncommon bonsai practice and frustratingly so...like putting a wet cat onto a feather pillow in a red wagon for a photo op....nothing about it is ideal but the cats so cute and after awhile -whose idea was this anyhow!!?

Evolutionary problems I see as compared to vertebrates ala fight or flight. Elms are fighters for example. Privet is a fighter. ERC will kill a branch or go knives out if you look at them wrong....these adaptations while different are both obviously successful in nature, but flight is not ideal to bonsai when the cards stack up.

Other species are not easy in my little experience (looking at you beech), but some just are potentially not worth the degree that biological/evolutionary “flight” have in their bonsai-associated dna (where ya at post oak? I thought we were friends?).

Whew...

I’ve collected a bunch of erc. I wired them; bare rooted; broke branches; put in poor mediums; clipped them; pinched them...essentially trying many things with expectant and blind -to novice (novice? not sure that appplies yet) approach..mostly (significanty) killed them all over the past couple of years. And, erc from what I’ve learned is the best material I’ve ever worked with predominantly because it’s free....

How much would 15 dead Shimpaku have gotten me? There is a reason why erc is a crayon and toddlers (that’s me) don’t often get handed quality oil paint. And if all I had was oil from day one, I think I’d have not the knowledge I have now.

I stopped collecting erc, (still have 3-4 i water) but would find new one for 3 yr....having idea of how to not have knives out and dead branches....but still not being in the realm of 3 yr. Shimpaku.
Fight or flight
 
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