First wiring job - Eastern Red Cedar

[TN_Jim]

...my hypothesis is that refinement in third year would require older tree, early removal of apical meristems, and deprivation of water and fertilizer

 

[Adair M]

...my hypothesis is that refinement in third year would require older tree, early removal of apical meristems, and deprivation of water and fertilizer

Can you post a few pictures of your survivors? It sounds like you have already Completed the three year challenge!

 

[TN_Jim]

...pulled this one out of the mulch

Having not yet practiced my hypothesis.....This is one of two survivors from first collections in 2017. It is not especially beautiful or a head turner, is ironically the most neglected one I have of all of them and least character/interest, probably why it’s still alive, and ironically closest to looking like wild others (erc) in my area (Naka?).

Here with Osage orange

 

[TN_Jim]

Can you post a few pictures of your survivors? It sounds like you have already Completed the three year challenge!

I think not

 

[Dragon60]

Just so everyone knows this was a practice tree for me but I fully intend to turn it into a nice bonsai. When I first trimmed it I wanted to get rid of extra growth in the wrong places. When I first wired it I decided to cut off a really low branch, then the next lowest branch I accidentally broke and then another. The tree did grow back some foliage but then I decided to trim the downward growing branches. Anyway now it looks the way it does but I'm confident much more growth will occur, especially starting around March.

 

[Lou T]

You are right, but this challenge isn’t directly at the OP here, but anyone who claims ERC can be made into “a beautiful Bonsai specimen” that will “turn heads” and “prove them wrong”. I showed what can be done with a Shimpaku juniper branch in 3 years, and I’m curious to see if anyone can produce a similar result with an ERC.

I picked up a Gray Owl today for 10 bucks at my local Ace. Will make a post tomorrow including that tree and a wild cultivar I’ve got as a volunteer in the ground currently. The way I see it, you’ve got more to lose. If I (or someone else) can make something decent in 3 short years of ERC with my beginner skill level, what does that say of your ability after your stated working with these trees over many frustrating and largely fruitless years? I guess we will have to see what happens

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I’m making no claims of beauty or head turning, but I would throw my hat in a three year erc experiment/competition with goals of aesthetically pleasing & head turning.

That said erc will very likely not be at all competitive with a Shimpaku of the same time frame (or also likely ever). So if comparing species, why bother?

I see the problem with erc being that they are readily available. The genus is right. There are some stunning ones in the wild. They have beautiful bark. They are generalist species to a degree that can thrive in very endemic arid environments. Also, they smell good.

Because of these things they are so appealing and for all intensive purposes should be ideal. But they are not friendly to what I understand as common or uncommon bonsai practice and frustratingly so...like putting a wet cat onto a feather pillow in a red wagon for a photo op....nothing about it is ideal but the cats so cute and after awhile -whose idea was this anyhow!!?

Evolutionary problems I see as compared to vertebrates ala fight or flight. Elms are fighters for example. Privet is a fighter. ERC will kill a branch or go knives out if you look at them wrong....these adaptations while different are both obviously successful in nature, but flight is not ideal to bonsai when the cards stack up.

Other species are not easy in my little experience (looking at you beech), but some just are potentially not worth the degree that biological/evolutionary “flight” have in their bonsai-associated dna (where ya at post oak? I thought we were friends?).

Whew...

I’ve collected a bunch of erc. I wired them; bare rooted; broke branches; put in poor mediums; clipped them; pinched them...essentially trying many things with expectant and blind -to novice (novice? not sure that appplies yet) approach..mostly (significanty) killed them all over the past couple of years. And, erc from what I’ve learned is the best material I’ve ever worked with predominantly because it’s free....

How much would 15 dead Shimpaku have gotten me? There is a reason why erc is a crayon and toddlers (that’s me) don’t often get handed quality oil paint. And if all I had was oil from day one, I think I’d have not the knowledge I have now.

I stopped collecting erc, (still have 3-4 i water) but would find new one for 3 yr....having idea of how to not have knives out and dead branches....but still not being in the realm of 3 yr. Shimpaku.
Fight or flight

I am interested in seeing a decent ERC Bonsai, not reading why they shouldn’t be discouraged. Show me, anyone.
Crayons vs. Quality Paint is nonsense. To learn to paint, don’t start with crayons. Same with shimpaku v. ERC.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Just so everyone knows this was a practice tree for me but I fully intend to turn it into a nice bonsai.

Then you better be careful. From this thread it appears to have been worked quite a bit. Look at this history:

April 2018: heavy pruning, wired, and repotted.
May 2018: unwired and wired again.
May 2018: “more styling” and more wire.
Aug 2018: shortened apex, now “not going to do any pruning for a long time”.
Aug 2018: did some tweaking to branches.
Dec 2018: trimmed off some branches that were long, wired the top.

Junipers need foliage to survive. If you want to turn it into a nice Bonsai, give it a chance to grow. Go get some more trees so you’re not loving this one to death.

 

[Dragon60]

Then you better be careful. From this thread it appears to have been worked quite a bit. Look at this history:

April 2018: heavy pruning, wired, and repotted.
May 2018: unwired and wired again.
May 2018: “more styling” and more wire.
Aug 2018: shortened apex, now “not going to do any pruning for a long time”.
Aug 2018: did some tweaking to branches.
Dec 2018: trimmed off some branches that were long, wired the top.

Junipers need foliage to survive. If you want to turn it into a nice Bonsai, give it a chance to grow. Go get some more trees so you’re not loving this one to death.

That's actually pretty good for me. I used to do much of that in one day.?

 

[rockm]

I have to chuckle at the "use it, prove them wrong" attitude. ERC has been tried as bonsai for decades, including by a few experienced bonsai people. That would indicate to me that there should be more than one or two decent bonsai made from them still out there. That is not the case...Every time this comes up, I post the same one or two pics of the decent ERCs on record. No one adds to those photos with additional examples of "head turners" or heck, even "good enough" developed ERC bonsai...

I also have a lot of mature in-ground ERC all around me here in Va. Some of those trees are pretty damn old. Most are NOT all that notable or picturesque visually. Some approach "nice old tree" images, but hardly anything all that dramatic. Mostly just thick green oval lollipops on veined trunks. Some of the oldest develop gnarlier, more open branching, but those examples aren't nearly as common as the green lollipops...BTW, ERC gave Baton Rouge. La. its name..."red stick" is a pretty accurate description of a typical ERC's trunk...

 

[TN_Jim]

I am interested in seeing a decent ERC Bonsai, not reading why they shouldn’t be discouraged. Show me, anyone.
Crayons vs. Quality Paint is nonsense. To learn to paint, don’t start with crayons. Same with shimpaku v. ERC.

As stated, ERC is inferior material compared to other species in my own experience, this is why I have abandoned it -also due to the more knowledgeable folks such as yourself (BVF) advising against it. I stopped collecting this material last spring after about a year.

Still though. It was an ideal species by way of education, trial and error, and general grasping of basic practice. In using this lesser material, it made no difference how I experimented with it. I ended up killing around 15 of them for free.

Brian, please tell me how much loot one Shimpaku is in middle Tennessee. Now multiple that by 15 (dead trees). Now please send that "nonsense" my way.

My kid has recently expressed an interest in playing guitar. I gave her an old Alvarez that is in good condition, but that I no longer play or care for. She strums it, beats on it, drags it around, knocks it over, experiments with the extremes of tuning etc...who cares if she snaps the neck...she is figuring it out without consequence. Sure, I could have gotten her a brand new hot rod Fender, but to what advantage -that could be later. I don't plan on getting her a Mustang when she's 16 either. To each their own.

My point is, that ERC allowed me to fail without loss, while also learning the true value of quality, and a better sense of how to utilize it.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

As stated, ERC is inferior material compared to other species in my own experience, this is why I have abandoned it -also due to the more knowledgeable folks such as yourself (BVF) advising against it. I stopped collecting this material last spring after about a year.

Still though. It was an ideal species by way of education, trial and error, and general grasping of basic practice. In using this lesser material, it made no difference how I experimented with it. I ended up killing around 15 of them for free.

Brian, please tell me how much loot one Shimpaku is in middle Tennessee. Now multiple that by 15 (dead trees). Now please send that "nonsense" my way.

My kid has recently expressed an interest in playing guitar. I gave her an old Alvarez that is in good condition, but that I no longer play or care for. She strums it, beats on it, drags it around, knocks it over, experiments with the extremes of tuning etc...who cares if she snaps the neck...she is figuring it out without consequence. Sure, I could have gotten her a brand new hot rod Fender, but to what advantage -that could be later. I don't plan on getting her a Mustang when she's 16 either. To each their own.

My point is, that ERC allowed me to fail without loss, while also learning the true value of quality, and a better sense of how to utilize it.

Right, you gave her a guitar to learn on, not a washtub bass. It would be nonsense to think she’ll become a guitar virtuoso if you gave her a washtub bass. Doesn’t mean she needs to start on a 1958 Les Paul, but at least on a guitar. If you work with Shimpaku and ERC you’ll see there’s virtually no comparison.

I’m really just hanging out waiting to see a head-turning ERC Bonsai. 14k members here. Anyone?

 

[Dragon60]

Well I figured I had nothing to lose with this tree. With such spindly branches it would be years to thicken up. Here in Florida it has put on more foliage growth so I figured I could perhaps rewire it into another style - perhaps Literati. But I did not want to remove any more branches or foliage. The very bottom branches did not go well with the Literati style but I didn't want to cut them. But because the branches are so pliable, I decided to attempt a 'Windswept Literati' style. I recently did this to a boxwood with some success. So I did some rewiring without pruning so it still has the new growth its been putting on. With more growth I'll eventually do some light trimming. The first picture is what I think is the best angle. One branch in the middle I want to bring around more but it is slightly broken so I couldn't move it more. Several tips need to be more horizontal but I'll worry about that later on.

 

[Dragon60]

And more

 

[Mellos]

@sorce Awesome tip!

 

[Dragon60]

I'm still not perfect at wiring yet but a lot more confident since viewing the free Colin Lewis wiring video at craftsy.com. I wouldn't have been able to do this without having seen it. I wired a few more of the ends with #1 wire. The very top of the tree will change over time just not sure what the end result will be.

 

[Adair M]

I'm still not perfect at wiring yet but a lot more confident since viewing the free Colin Lewis wiring video at craftsy.com. I wouldn't have been able to do this without having seen it. I wired a few more of the ends with #1 wire. The very top of the tree will change over time just not sure what the end result will be. View attachment 227803View attachment 227805

Every subsequent picture, this poor tree has less and less foliage!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Every subsequent picture, this poor tree has less and less foliage!

The sign of someone who needs to have more trees.

 

[Dragon60]

The sign of someone who needs to have more trees.

Well, I don't think there's many b'nuts who would want Dragonmaster to have too many trees. He would feel compelled to make threads for all of them. I can hear this collective 'nooooooooooooooooo' like when Mr. Bill fell off the Empire State building (SNL in the 70's). Seriously though I do have a few other trees and have made other threads on a couple. This tree I noticed about 6 years ago and collected about 4 years ago. It sat in a gallon pot for 3 years without any regular watering, just rainfall and it lived. It survived my heavy pruning and lived. It survived being wired/rewired 3 times over the past year and still lives. It is currently putting out new growth which will only increase over the next few months. Will it continue to survive? I don't know for sure. But what I do know is that I'm very happy with it and the style I made it. I will do my best to keep it going.

 

[WesB]

Well, I don't think there's many b'nuts who would want Dragonmaster to have too many trees. He would feel compelled to make threads for all of them. I can hear this collective 'nooooooooooooooooo' like when Mr. Bill fell off the Empire State building (SNL in the 70's). Seriously though I do have a few other trees and have made other threads on a couple. This tree I noticed about 6 years ago and collected about 4 years ago. It sat in a gallon pot for 3 years without any regular watering, just rainfall and it lived. It survived my heavy pruning and lived. It survived being wired/rewired 3 times over the past year and still lives. It is currently putting out new growth which will only increase over the next few months. Will it continue to survive? I don't know for sure. But what I do know is that I'm very happy with it and the style I made it. I will do my best to keep it going.

Dude, it’s trunk collecting season. Elms, privets.. what’s growing in your woods and river banks? Hawthorn? Holly bush? Here’s a privet I pulled from a creek, lost it the 3rd year before I got to work on it but they are plentiful in numbers and grow fat near water.

Got any native pines in your area?