Flattery or Sound Advice

fourteener

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I just want to get an idea for what the norms are around here, so I can comply or do something else. Recently several people have posted a tree and asked for advice. I've done my best to offer some sound advice that looks to the future only to have it be followed up by 2 or three people who say things like..."Your tree looks great, I wouldn't change a thing." Nothing needs to be done to your tree.

Bonsai is a long term project. I've been around enough to know that the action or inaction performed today will move a tree forward or cause it to regress. Typically fixing what has regressed takes a lot more time to fix than doing it right the first time. Do you want your tree to look good today or do you want it to look better in three years?

I see a lot of trees here with too much extension, taper issues that are minimal now but are about to become big problems, a lack of detailed refinement that would push a tree over the top to become something great instead of simply good.

If this is a site where the number one goal is flattery...your tree looks great, tell me my tree looks great, I want to know what the rules are. If people wonder why some respected people are no longer around...I think I have a guess.

I was on a photo site where one lady ruined it all for everyone by telling everyone, every photo was great. Soon everyone started telling her, her photos were great. Round and round it went until all photos were mediocre and serious photographers found other sites.

For those asking for advice, learn to sift through the flattery of some for the good advice of others.Thanks to those of you of offer consistently good advice.
 
Smoke had a similar thread about "Attaboy" and truth.

I agree with you, posters seem to avoid critiques...both new and seasoned ones. I like deconstructing trees as early as possible for (what I believe is) a better tree in the future but not everyone have the same mentality and that is okay. I hope there is an easy way to address this but there is none. The ones giving realistic (usually harsh) critique usually come off as jerks so most avoid doing it I guess.

It is far easier to "praise" and be liked than think, critique, and get rejected. ;)
 
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You (or I) say what you(I) gotta say about a tree. We can't make the owner of that tree listen to our comments or advice. If he or she prefers to listen to the "nice tree" post rather than the post offering criticism AND advice, there's nothing we can do about it.

And, hey, those "nice tree" guys may be right. :confused:

Ditto if the person posting the tree really feels that it is a finished product and only posted it here for the "attaboys".
 
fourteener,

the way it is done on Art Forums.

If someone shows a bunch of sketches - work in progress - critiques can be offered. If requested.

If someone shows a finished painting - all you offer is appreciation.

Plus, there is no guarantee that anything you offer will be appreciated and or acted on.

The last bit of reality I offered earned me a --- you are out of date and looking for an argument.

So it becomes safer to say nothing, or only say nice things.

Simple, get to know the poster and see if the advice will be respected or acted on.
AND even then it is still a chance, you take.
Good Day.
Anthony
 
‚Beautiful bonsai’

I know, it is all my own fault. Since I have led Fred to this IBC gallery he is not so much around anymore recently. This IBC gallery is a continuous Valentine’s Day for bonsai enthusiasts. All the time flowers are being presented. I have made the mistake to go to Fred’s thread there and to write a critique to his bonsai.

Ding dong

I think I have to go to the front door, somebody seems to not be happy about my critique.


“What the h… are you smoking to ruin my great thread with such superfluous and vicious commentary?” Fred did not loose time. “What is wrong with my commentary? What’s so mean about it? I have written a constructive criticism to your bonsai.”

Fred presented a printout of his thread with his bonsai and my critique.

My critique: “This is a very nice picture of a tree that will appeal to many people. It will most appeal to people who have no clue about bonsai. They cannot tell that this is a deciduous semi-tropical tree which is styled in the old-fashioned manner as a pine tree looking like a Christmas tree. A pine tree with huge red flowers! This is bonsai kitsch it is McBonsai! This in no way helps to educate the general public about what bonsai really means. Where is the Zenny feeling her? Where is the understatement? This is Hollywood bonsai! Well, I must admit I kind of like it , even if it is kitsch.”

“This has nothing to do with constructive criticism. If you want to know what that could be then you should have read what the other posters had to say.”

I shrugged and said “Well, Fred, these were empty flowery phrases. No helpful constructive critique for you.”

Fred looked at his paper and responded defiantly “Ah, and what is this here? Here the very first statement says it clearly: ‘beautiful bonsai’”

I looked somewhat puzzled “So what? What exactly does that mean ‘beautiful bonsai’?”

Fred rolled his eyes “This is more than clear. But for you as a beginner bonsaiwise I will explain it once more. ‘Beautiful bonsai’ means that the viewer likes the tree very much. That he likes it regarding the artistic achievement as well as for the craftsmanship; he thinks it is a masterpiece.” Fred folded his arms and grinned at me like ‘now you!’

I stayed quite calm and remarked “where from do you have this definition for ‘beautiful bonsai’?”

Fred rolled his eyes again “What do you mean, where I got this definition from? It is crystal clear what the expression ‘beautiful bonsai’ means. What else could it mean?”

“Well it is like with references and testimonies. There you find ‘he always tried hard’, which means that he had not invented Protestant work ethics, he is just a lazy pig, a non-achiever.”

“Oh well” Fred blushed a little. He apparently was thinking through his last reference “and what do YOU think ‘beautiful bonsai’ means exactly?”

I made a contemplative expression and said “I cannot tell exactly at the moment, but I can look it up.”

“Look it up? Where?” asked Fred.

“Oh well” I answered “for this we have the International Guidelines for Bonsai Critiques. Just a moment I will fetch them.”

I went to my study and came back two minutes later. Fred still stood with wide open eyes. I knew it! He had never heard or this.

I did not even look a t him and stated to browse. “Well, let’s look – ‘beautiful bonsai’ here we are:

“ ‘Beautiful Bonsai’
if this expression occurs singularly as comment one must assume that the writer did this out of sheer friendliness and tradition. It is the expression of the viewer who does not see any successful artistic factor in the bonsai and who cannot make a positive remark. Since he assumes that the artist and the readers are not used to open criticism he uses the empty phrase ‘beautiful bonsai’.
The constructive substance for a tree critique is zero.”

“That’s complete nonsense!” Fred said with excitement. “Wait wait! What is with this commentary here ‘wow, hammer tree, this really cracks me up!’”

“Just a moment, I will look it up. Ah, here it is:

‘Wow’
- if this expression is used in connection with ‘beautiful bonsai’ see there.
- if the word is used in connexion with hammer .. or mega…one must conclude that the writer is on some sort of mild drug or forgot his medication.
In cases where this phrase is used with ‘cracks me up’ then the sentence above applies, only the word ‘mild’ has to be exchanged for ‘heavy’.
The constructive substance for a tree critique is zero.”

“But here, this commentary is full of praise. ‘Great, I have tried this one too, but yours is much better’ .This should be clear without your book.”

“Let’s see” I tried to look as cool as possible. Any lining of malicious joy would bring him to explosion.

“ Comparisons with own bonsai, where the bonsai that is being critiqued is called the better one:
has the writer got a similar bonsai that is clearly worse he would never mention it. If you still find this comparison you can take it that the pundit makes fun of your bonsai and want so to say ‘look at my web site if you want to see how this is really done, you sucker’. Since this honest critique would not be helpful one hides the real meaning behind empty praise.
The constructive substance for a tree critique is zero.”

Fred read a few more commentaries like super, fantastic, extraordinary, amazing etc.. The explanations of the book always were very simple. They said “look up ‘beautiful bonsai’”.

Fred made a last attempt. “Now here! This commentary is brief, explicit and it is not possible to misinterpret it: ‘super the photograph is really great’. Now lets see what your smart book says to this.”

Scroll, scroll .. oh yes here it is:

“‘great photograph’
there are various photographs, sometimes even great ones. There are various bananas, sometimes even great ones. If you take a photograph of a banana you have taken a photograph of a banana. If you take a great photograph of a banana, you have taken a great photograph of a banana. It makes no difference at all whether your object is good or bad, it is still a banana. The critique wants to express that there is nothing positive with the bonsai. To give his comment a friendly touch still, he admires something which has nothing to do with the quality of the bonsai, namely the photograph. It is like the guru says 'beautiful moss' when critiquing your bonsai.
The constructive substance for a tree critique is zero.”

Fred rumpled his printout with the commentaries and looked quite pissed. ”I could have known that. The commentaries are similar to the ones of my Mary when she wants to get something out of me. But the IBC folks don’t want to get something out of me. Why all this wish-wash?

I shrugged and said “no idea, maybe some are simply craving for strokes. It is not really that bad as long as you understand how to interpret it. The danger exists though, that when you get a serious bonsai critique you take it personally and your ability for self critique vanes.”

“Cannot happen to me” Fred mentioned, “ I am always open to honest commentaries.”

“O yeah, sure”, I thought.

“There was one more commentary on your printout”, I remarked.
Fred frowned and he said “Yes, here one wrote simply ‘to the dumpsters’, but I have ignored him right away, he only wants to be provocative.”

“Oh, you have ignored him simply and he has not written more?”

“No no!” Fred responded, “that’s not what I meant. If someone expresses himself in a derogatory way one can put him on IGNORE at the IBC gallery and he cannot express himself anymore.”

“Mhm, that’s what they call self criticism at the IBC. Great outfit, what is not liked gets disposed of at once.”

Fred pondered a bit and then said “Well, if all that sounds positive is really negative, then the remark ‘to the dumpsters’ could really be something very positive.”

“Eh, what is positive in the expression ‘to the dumpsters’? That’s so clear, I don’t’ think that is in the book.” I said puzzled.

“Don’t yap, look up the book, you have not clue yourself.”

So well, then let’s look “Oh yes here it is.”

“ ‘to the dumpsters’
not very constructive, but to be taken very positively with some experience in bonsai critiques.”

“Hear, hear!”, Fred said in a pronounced tone.

“Just a moment, here is more to the expression”

“- The very positive meaning of the expression ‘to the dumpsters’ comes from the fact that it is a concise but honest answer that leaves no leeway for interpretations. ‘To the dumpsters’ means ‘to the dumpsters’ to everyone.
small modifications are ‘go fishing’, ‘scrap’, ‘rather go knitting’ etc.
‘to the dumpsters’ is the honest way to say ‘beautiful bonsai’, see there.”

“Show me this g…..ed book”, Fred yelled. He read a bit in it and then said relatively ungently “just wait now! I will write commentaries from now on that will make them shiver.” He turned around and walked to his home. There came John from the Yodeling Group at him with a big grin on his face “Hi Fred, I looked up your website. Really all very beautiful bonsai!”

Fred stopped, flushed and stemmed the fists into his sides. ”I smack the beautiful bonsai right into your face you M…………R”

Then he went on to his home; John stood like a doused poodle, shrugged and said to me “What’s up with him? Have I said something wrong?”

“Oh no”, I said “Fred does not think much of these empty phrases. He needs constructive criticism.”

-------------------------------

So at the next tree critique remember that the artist may also own the International Guidelines for Bonsai Critiques. Be honest with your tree critique. It helps nobody to talk the bonsai beautiful. And if someone sets you on ignore you know that Reiner, mhm, no Fred has sneaked into other Forums too.

And now I don’t want to hear ‘Beautiful Story’.


Written closely according to an essay in the ‘Beautiful Website’ of The Buxtehuder Fotofreunde http://www.buxtehuder-fotofreunde.de/index.htm

With the kind permission of the original author, Thomas Tremmel. He wrote about the silly comments on photographs in a forum for photography
 

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I think that we have to consider that there is more than just the two opposites, flattery or sound advice. There is also a lot of bad advice given here.
 
Part of the problem is that some of the newer to the hobby folks don't really KNOW or understand the components of what make a good tree. So to them -they may think it is a beautiful tree, and they comment in that vein.
What the poster must do is discern what are the constructive comments, and use them. It's not so easy, but if you watch who posts good trees, and then watch their comments, you can get good and helpful information. I know I have.
 
Part of the problem is that some of the newer to the hobby folks don't really KNOW or understand the components of what make a good tree. So to them -they may think it is a beautiful tree, and they comment in that vein.
What the poster must do is discern what are the constructive comments, and use them. It's not so easy, but if you watch who posts good trees, and then watch their comments, you can get good and helpful information. I know I have.

Totally agree...wet behind the ears...and just learning bonsai. Many trees look rather neat to me...to learn they are all wrong when I ask about them.

But...I have to say that bonsai is a form of art as well...and we can all interpret it slightly in a different matter. A finished product to one...may be as far as their creativity will take them. Sound advice to take it to another level...I can't see as wrong. Criticism to make it better should be taken with gratitude. Because even the greatest can learn from another persons perspective. At least that is my take on bonsai...
 
It is very easy to say nothing at all or say "beautiful bonsai".

More difficult and sometimes quite time consuming to really study a tree and come up with useful suggestions for improvement. Even then, it's all relative...what you consider improvement may be considered unnecessary by someone else. Then there's always the problem of working from 2-d images versus seeing the 3-d tree in front of you.

My approach - if you feel like you have suggestions that will improve a tree, offer them! If they are opposite of what someone else offers (or even what everyone else offers), that's OK. You never know what that suggestion will lead to. If you offer suggestions that require a major restyling and years of work and the original poster was looking for "beautiful bonsai", then it's his/her choice what to do with that information.

Chris
 
Totally agree...wet behind the ears...and just learning bonsai. Many trees look rather neat to me...to learn they are all wrong when I ask about them.

But...I have to say that bonsai is a form of art as well...and we can all interpret it slightly in a different matter. A finished product to one...may be as far as their creativity will take them. Sound advice to take it to another level...I can't see as wrong. Criticism to make it better should be taken with gratitude. Because even the greatest can learn from another persons perspective. At least that is my take on bonsai...

I'm pretty sure I fall into the category of 'beautiful bonsai' too often. I'm still a relative newbie, so I'm a bit insecure offering my opinion/constructive criticisms. And I still miss flaws that other people here notice and make note. Then I say to myself, "darn, I missed that entirely!", or, "oh, NOW I see it". Actually, this is where the learning is for me. I may say "beautiful bonsai", then someone offers some observations/advice/criticism. I see what they're talking about, and slowly I'm teaching myself to be more detail oriented and visualize for myself the flaws/suggestions. But I don't have the confidence to state it online. It's already been noted before that advice from beginners is generally crap/inaccurate...so I'm trying to just say I like a tree when I like it.

Oh, and Walter, 'beautiful story' LOL!!
 
fourteener,

when I first started on forums, I was there as often as I could be. Sites start with the ground breakers, then a few years later, the maintainers arrive and lastly the takers.

Normally the backboners get fed up saying the same thing over and over and fade off after so many years. Same happens with many of the maintainers.

Depending on which stage a forum has evolved to, the critiques are accepted anxiously, angrily or indifferently.

The trouble is few forums have a FAQ section, that goes from beginner to beginning intermediate. Once someone has crossed the keeping alive to healthy, soil mixes that work, and wiring/pruning/repotting. They move onto design. By design they need more intense help, than a written forum can give.

This is why showing a flat image and trying to get a critique is mostly a waste of time.How much of the plant are you really seeing.
Now there is a rotation 3d, used at Ausbonsai, that would do a better job, but I don't know if Bonsainut can afford the programme.
Good Day.
Anthony
 
‚Beautiful bonsai’

I know, it is all my own fault. Since I have led Fred to this IBC gallery he is not so much around anymore recently. This IBC gallery is a continuous Valentine’s Day for bonsai enthusiasts. All the time flowers are being presented. I have made the mistake to go to Fred’s thread there and to write a critique to his bonsai.

Ding dong

I think I have to go to the front door, somebody seems to not be happy about my critique.


“What the h… are you smoking to ruin my great thread with such superfluous and vicious commentary?” Fred did not loose time. “What is wrong with my commentary? What’s so mean about it? I have written a constructive criticism to your bonsai.”

Fred presented a printout of his thread with his bonsai and my critique.

My critique: “This is a very nice picture of a tree that will appeal to many people. It will most appeal to people who have no clue about bonsai. They cannot tell that this is a deciduous semi-tropical tree which is styled in the old-fashioned manner as a pine tree looking like a Christmas tree. A pine tree with huge red flowers! This is bonsai kitsch it is McBonsai! This in no way helps to educate the general public about what bonsai really means. Where is the Zenny feeling her? Where is the understatement? This is Hollywood bonsai! Well, I must admit I kind of like it , even if it is kitsch.”

“This has nothing to do with constructive criticism. If you want to know what that could be then you should have read what the other posters had to say.”

I shrugged and said “Well, Fred, these were empty flowery phrases. No helpful constructive critique for you.”

Fred looked at his paper and responded defiantly “Ah, and what is this here? Here the very first statement says it clearly: ‘beautiful bonsai’”

I looked somewhat puzzled “So what? What exactly does that mean ‘beautiful bonsai’?”

Fred rolled his eyes “This is more than clear. But for you as a beginner bonsaiwise I will explain it once more. ‘Beautiful bonsai’ means that the viewer likes the tree very much. That he likes it regarding the artistic achievement as well as for the craftsmanship; he thinks it is a masterpiece.” Fred folded his arms and grinned at me like ‘now you!’

I stayed quite calm and remarked “where from do you have this definition for ‘beautiful bonsai’?”

Fred rolled his eyes again “What do you mean, where I got this definition from? It is crystal clear what the expression ‘beautiful bonsai’ means. What else could it mean?”

“Well it is like with references and testimonies. There you find ‘he always tried hard’, which means that he had not invented Protestant work ethics, he is just a lazy pig, a non-achiever.”

“Oh well” Fred blushed a little. He apparently was thinking through his last reference “and what do YOU think ‘beautiful bonsai’ means exactly?”

I made a contemplative expression and said “I cannot tell exactly at the moment, but I can look it up.”

“Look it up? Where?” asked Fred.

“Oh well” I answered “for this we have the International Guidelines for Bonsai Critiques. Just a moment I will fetch them.”

I went to my study and came back two minutes later. Fred still stood with wide open eyes. I knew it! He had never heard or this.

I did not even look a t him and stated to browse. “Well, let’s look – ‘beautiful bonsai’ here we are:

“ ‘Beautiful Bonsai’
if this expression occurs singularly as comment one must assume that the writer did this out of sheer friendliness and tradition. It is the expression of the viewer who does not see any successful artistic factor in the bonsai and who cannot make a positive remark. Since he assumes that the artist and the readers are not used to open criticism he uses the empty phrase ‘beautiful bonsai’.
The constructive substance for a tree critique is zero.”

“That’s complete nonsense!” Fred said with excitement. “Wait wait! What is with this commentary here ‘wow, hammer tree, this really cracks me up!’”

“Just a moment, I will look it up. Ah, here it is:

‘Wow’
- if this expression is used in connection with ‘beautiful bonsai’ see there.
- if the word is used in connexion with hammer .. or mega…one must conclude that the writer is on some sort of mild drug or forgot his medication.
In cases where this phrase is used with ‘cracks me up’ then the sentence above applies, only the word ‘mild’ has to be exchanged for ‘heavy’.
The constructive substance for a tree critique is zero.”

“But here, this commentary is full of praise. ‘Great, I have tried this one too, but yours is much better’ .This should be clear without your book.”

“Let’s see” I tried to look as cool as possible. Any lining of malicious joy would bring him to explosion.

“ Comparisons with own bonsai, where the bonsai that is being critiqued is called the better one:
has the writer got a similar bonsai that is clearly worse he would never mention it. If you still find this comparison you can take it that the pundit makes fun of your bonsai and want so to say ‘look at my web site if you want to see how this is really done, you sucker’. Since this honest critique would not be helpful one hides the real meaning behind empty praise.
The constructive substance for a tree critique is zero.”

Fred read a few more commentaries like super, fantastic, extraordinary, amazing etc.. The explanations of the book always were very simple. They said “look up ‘beautiful bonsai’”.

Fred made a last attempt. “Now here! This commentary is brief, explicit and it is not possible to misinterpret it: ‘super the photograph is really great’. Now lets see what your smart book says to this.”

Scroll, scroll .. oh yes here it is:

“‘great photograph’
there are various photographs, sometimes even great ones. There are various bananas, sometimes even great ones. If you take a photograph of a banana you have taken a photograph of a banana. If you take a great photograph of a banana, you have taken a great photograph of a banana. It makes no difference at all whether your object is good or bad, it is still a banana. The critique wants to express that there is nothing positive with the bonsai. To give his comment a friendly touch still, he admires something which has nothing to do with the quality of the bonsai, namely the photograph. It is like the guru says 'beautiful moss' when critiquing your bonsai.
The constructive substance for a tree critique is zero.”

Fred rumpled his printout with the commentaries and looked quite pissed. ”I could have known that. The commentaries are similar to the ones of my Mary when she wants to get something out of me. But the IBC folks don’t want to get something out of me. Why all this wish-wash?

I shrugged and said “no idea, maybe some are simply craving for strokes. It is not really that bad as long as you understand how to interpret it. The danger exists though, that when you get a serious bonsai critique you take it personally and your ability for self critique vanes.”

“Cannot happen to me” Fred mentioned, “ I am always open to honest commentaries.”

“O yeah, sure”, I thought.

“There was one more commentary on your printout”, I remarked.
Fred frowned and he said “Yes, here one wrote simply ‘to the dumpsters’, but I have ignored him right away, he only wants to be provocative.”

“Oh, you have ignored him simply and he has not written more?”

“No no!” Fred responded, “that’s not what I meant. If someone expresses himself in a derogatory way one can put him on IGNORE at the IBC gallery and he cannot express himself anymore.”

“Mhm, that’s what they call self criticism at the IBC. Great outfit, what is not liked gets disposed of at once.”

Fred pondered a bit and then said “Well, if all that sounds positive is really negative, then the remark ‘to the dumpsters’ could really be something very positive.”

“Eh, what is positive in the expression ‘to the dumpsters’? That’s so clear, I don’t’ think that is in the book.” I said puzzled.

“Don’t yap, look up the book, you have not clue yourself.”

So well, then let’s look “Oh yes here it is.”

“ ‘to the dumpsters’
not very constructive, but to be taken very positively with some experience in bonsai critiques.”

“Hear, hear!”, Fred said in a pronounced tone.

“Just a moment, here is more to the expression”

“- The very positive meaning of the expression ‘to the dumpsters’ comes from the fact that it is a concise but honest answer that leaves no leeway for interpretations. ‘To the dumpsters’ means ‘to the dumpsters’ to everyone.
small modifications are ‘go fishing’, ‘scrap’, ‘rather go knitting’ etc.
‘to the dumpsters’ is the honest way to say ‘beautiful bonsai’, see there.”

“Show me this g…..ed book”, Fred yelled. He read a bit in it and then said relatively ungently “just wait now! I will write commentaries from now on that will make them shiver.” He turned around and walked to his home. There came John from the Yodeling Group at him with a big grin on his face “Hi Fred, I looked up your website. Really all very beautiful bonsai!”

Fred stopped, flushed and stemmed the fists into his sides. ”I smack the beautiful bonsai right into your face you M…………R”

Then he went on to his home; John stood like a doused poodle, shrugged and said to me “What’s up with him? Have I said something wrong?”

“Oh no”, I said “Fred does not think much of these empty phrases. He needs constructive criticism.”

-------------------------------

So at the next tree critique remember that the artist may also own the International Guidelines for Bonsai Critiques. Be honest with your tree critique. It helps nobody to talk the bonsai beautiful. And if someone sets you on ignore you know that Reiner, mhm, no Fred has sneaked into other Forums too.

And now I don’t want to hear ‘Beautiful Story’.


Written closely according to an essay in the ‘Beautiful Website’ of The Buxtehuder Fotofreunde http://www.buxtehuder-fotofreunde.de/index.htm

With the kind permission of the original author, Thomas Tremmel. He wrote about the silly comments on photographs in a forum for photography

I like that pic! "What a beautiful Bonsai"!!!! :p

Thanks for posting this Walter, it is long but it says a lot!
 
Anthony mentioned AusBonsai, and I will confess to frequenting that forum more than this, even though I am in the USA. Now, part of that is because in Phoenix, Australian trees are readily available and grow very well, so I have quite a few of them.

But a lot of the reason is I feel like the organization is better. They have species guides and tutorials with sticky threads that are easy to find. They have a pretty decent and still growing wiki with lots of good info. As a beginner, it's easier to find what I'm looking for there, which prevents me from asking a lot of stupid questions, and keeps the forums a little more focused on real bonsai rather than "How do I save my mallsai?!?!?!" That still pops up, but I feel like it's less frequent.

We should all ask ourselves, do you want to HAVE nice bonsai, or practice the ART OF CREATING nice bonsai? These forums are for those who want to create the art, not collect it, and we should all be striving to perfect our art no matter the past accolades or failures. If you just want to collect nice bonsai, call a professional, get out your checkbook, and then have a dinner party to show your collection off to your guests. They will all say "Nice bonsai." If you want to improve your skills and your trees, then you need to be looking for your weaknesses anyway, and you should be grateful when others help you out.

Anyway, just my $0.02.
 
I post to get advice and no matter how it is presented I really appreciate the input. I am in the process nearing getting good stock after 6 years now of learning how to grow, fertilize, water, winter, prune, root prune, air-layer, and more. I would not have been this committed if it was not for good advise and critique. People being honest has me SO looking forward to my Spring purchases.

Thank you ;)

Grimmy
 
I've been here a few years and seen my share of "advice requests" degenerate into some pretty incredible fights.

My advice, and this isn't directed at anyone, drop the false pride. There are members here that possess an incredible amount of skill, knowledge and willingly part with it. I've been around bonsai for a number of years and I think I have a pretty idea of what I'm doing, but if someone like Al, Rob, Atilla and a plethora of others whose words I trust were to tell me "...you really need to focus on, or work on x,y, or z, or seriously re-think what your doing... I would be a complete and utter fool not to listen to them regardless if it came as a kick in the ass or not.

I never had the benefit of a teacher or mentor in this gig; everything I've done has been on my own, so my objective is to use this forum as a tool to learn from. Yeah, this distance- learning thing is a bit difficult, but beggars can't be choosers and the collective degree of skill here can serve a really good purpose if we shut up and listen.
 
I've said this before in smoke's thread but here we are again:

Constructive criticism is often easier to digest with a spoonful of sugar.

"Hey, good on you for trying but I think you're putting a lot of energy into a tree that is ill-suited for bonsai" vs "This piece of junk is a piece of junk and you should probably visit an orchid forum and hang up the copper wire".

But you know what grinds my gears? When someone asks for help or advice and is only seeking confirmation of their vision. If you want to show off a tree, take a page from sawgrass and jkl and say, "Here it is. Like it or hate it. It's what it is."
 
I can relate this to a story... My 11 year old daughter comes out and whines, "My sisters don't want to play what I want to play." My ever compassionate response, "Get over it. Play what you want. If they want to join, they will. You can't make them do something they don't want to." This may at times evolve into a statement along the lines of, "Grow up!"

This is no different. You give advice, solicited or not, and they have the choice to follow. You cannot make them. I, however, do agree with the previous post from berobinson82.

Let me propose another scenario: I know one of the threads you are referring to. I looked at that tree and thought, "man, I think I would thin out the branches a little." Then, I wait to see what the more experienced members say. If they say something similar, then I know that I am developing an eye for bonsai. It confirms that I am learning. So, they may not have taken your advice, but you have certainly helped someone else grow in this art.
 
I've been on several other hobby club chatlines for decades and find this type of situation is pretty common.

In those hobbies I have about 35 years of experience by DOING. Many are chatline experienced.
They parrot what they've heard but have no personal experience.

same with judges in this hobby I'm speaking of. In it for the personal prestige and image, not the hobby.

They do a dis-service to others and the hobbies they represent. But pretty common and dispite the chatline faults it can be a good place to start.
 
I've been on several other hobby club chatlines for decades and find this type of situation is pretty common.

In those hobbies I have about 35 years of experience by DOING. Many are chatline experienced.
They parrot what they've heard but have no personal experience.

same with judges in this hobby I'm speaking of. In it for the personal prestige and image, not the hobby.

They do a dis-service to others and the hobbies they represent. But pretty common and dispite the chatline faults it can be a good place to start.

Again, I thank you ALL that have helped me get to this point of my experience by being Honest.

Grimmy
 
Can we try some solutions ?

[1] Starting in the Craft [ Art comes after Design and only if you get the respect of those who are accepted as Artists.] What do you grow ?

Grow something from your area, and preferably outdoors. At 3 to 5 victims, probably the same type.

Soil. find a club or someone who has at least 10 years of success of growing. Keep it simple.

What size do you like? 2 feet to 3 feet can be impressive, but can you repot them by yourself, or do you have helping hands.

Pots, so you make or do you buy plastic [ can they take the cold ?] Up to 14" is easily found and that will handle say a 21" tall tree. They cost little.

[2] Keep the trees alive and try for health.

[3] Join a club, or find someone with the experience to teach wiring and pruning.

[4] Keep an eye out for what grows well in your area, try to keep the odds in your favour.

[5] A thin trunk, with well placed branches,branchlets and is healthy, handles repotting and leaves you confident, is better than than a thick trunk that is full of big cuts [ possibly rotting ]
and will take years to re-build the root system.

[6] You should have around 300 plants in 3 years to keep learning from.

[7] You may wish to test ground growing --------- check to see how much distance is needed from the other trees to get good growing. It is like planting citrus trees 15' from each other, but the tree will mature at 25' wide.

We get 3" on a tamarind trunk, simply because we know the space needed to get the growth.

[8] It makes more sense to have someone who has mature trees, to ask to work with them, wire etc. They can guide you past the problems. Experience.

At the end of the time when you have a soil mix that works, trees are healthy and you are confident.
You are ready for Design.

[9] Study Books of finished trees, go to Exhibitions, discuss, study, visit private collections of merit, ask questions.

I may be outdated, but I believe, basics first.

So pots, don't come in until you have trees that merit a pot. By that time you will want quality.
Quality costs.

So you cut down your work to 50 or fewer trees/shrubs.

No matter how pretty a pot is, it is not an item that is easily resold. Always remember that.

You may also enjoy, making your own pots. It is not difficult, see youtube if you can't take classes.

Note by now, there is no mention of forums - why - because when I was learning about Bonsai, you had to be adaptable, and read, visit folk and exhibitions.I had a ball.

Bonsai is a hands on situation.

When I went to forums, it was just to chat.
Good Day.
Anthony
 
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