For my buddy Grouper

[Smoke]

Yes, this is the greatest thing about bonsai. The work of generations is accumulated in one little tree. Some of the trees I'm working on, have already passed two generations of bonsai artists, before they got to me. After working on them for a decade and a half(or more) myself, it's hard to let them go without any assurance that they will be well cared for. The dillemma is that people who would pay a good price for such a multi-generational tree, may not have the necessary skill. For them, $500 is nothing. On the other hand, for people who you know that they will be thrilled to own such a tree, $500 is not an affordable option. I tend to believe that I'd rather sell the tree for half the price (and basically get back my money that I paid for it, as raw material) if I know that the tree will continue to thrive in the future.

Trees such as these with that kind of provenence, if of that caliber, should be donated to the Huntington for future viewers with your name among those before you. Of course there is always the danger of your tree being worth mayby 85.00 and it will be sold off for 75.00 to keep up the good trees.....

 

[Attila Soos]

Well if you got those kind of trees maybe I can expect to see four or five at the shohin seminar next month, either for sale or in the exhibit.

If I only had your ambitions...

 

[Attila Soos]

Trees such as these with that kind of provenence, if of that caliber, should be donated to the Huntington for future viewers with your name among those before you. Of course there is always the danger of your tree being worth mayby 85.00 and it will be sold off for 75.00 to keep up the good trees.....

Not a bad idea, although I believe that a large tree is better suited for being donated to a public collection. Smaller trees just don't have the same visual impact, when displayed outdoors.

As far as the $85 tree, I take that as a shot in my general direction (second shot, to be exact). I am a little surprised, but no offense taken. I didn't know that you think so little of me. I must have pushed some button, inadvertently. Probably a good enough reason to avoid your shohin seminar. But I know that you love this kind of stuff. Keep them coming

For Rick amd Will:
Sorry for highjacking your thread. Sometimes it happens, n'est pas?

 

[Smoke]

Not a bad idea, although I believe that a large tree is better suited for being donated to a public collection. Smaller trees just don't have the same visual impact, when displayed outdoors.

As far as the $85 tree, I take that as a shot in my general direction (second shot, to be exact). I am a little surprised, but no offense taken. I didn't know that you think so little of me. I must have pushed some button, inadvertently. Probably a good enough reason to avoid your shohin seminar. But I know that you love this kind of stuff. Keep them coming

For Rick amd Will:
Sorry for highjacking your thread. Sometimes it happens, n'est pas?

Actually the Huntington just spent a huge sum of money to build the Shohin Pavillion. It is very nice with display areas that are backed with plastic and can be covered at night with security gates to keep them from going away. Shohin is huge in California, and probably some of the best shohin in the nation are to be found right here in California.

As far as taking shots...hardly. I just find anytime someone thinks they have a shohin worth 500.00 and has not posted a picture of it here or anywhere for that matter is just opening a can or worms for themselves. My trees are an open book. Thats me, maybe not you, and that I can respect. But...you have to admit that when a guy like me has been doing bonsai for just shy of 30 years and seriously doing shohin for 15 years and a guy says he has trees worth 500.00, you have peaked my curiosity a little. You don't have to show what you have....but then your going to have to take my jabs also. Nuthin personal.... anyone who made the 500.00 statement would be wondering why I am interested. Again the 85.00 has nothing to do with you personally, I have just seen many collections, (north and south and Clark Center also) sell off really good trees for a fair price just to raise the needed money for fertilizer and pots. necessary items but it hurts to donate a tree to a collection only to find out it was not as good as you thought it was only to be sold off for fertilizer. many would say "hey if you were going to sell it, I would have kept it).

So making the decision to donate comes with some ability to take off the rose colored glasses. Just reality brother.....

Read Treebeard55 new signature....it says it all??????

 

[grouper52]

For Rick amd Will:
Sorry for highjacking your thread. Sometimes it happens, n'est pas?

No problemo. I hadn't returned to the site since any of these replies appeared, and the discussion is quite interesting.

My own thoughts?

I'm not sure how I could possibly judge, in a monetary sense, what amount of value-added "work" I have put into a tree over time. I can't imagine anyone thinks along those lines, especially a hobbyist. Price paid for material (if bought, not collected) and the pot - that can be calculated. "Value added" is in the eye, and the wallet, of the beholder.

I am not a businessman or a professional artist, hoping to earn my living with my creations. If I sell some trees, fine - hopefully a win-win situation all around, as are all legitimate market transactions. If I don't, I loose nothing - I still have my trees.

To a large extent, I think people in this society are spoiled by a sense of envy and entitlement. To me, I never expect to be given things for free, except gifts from dear friends and family, and if I want something of value I expect to pay a fair price for it. I understand if a friend might sell me something I want at a somewhat reduced price, and I am prone to do the same, but there is no expectation, no sense of entitlement.

In general, I believe in buying the best quality I can afford, and I believe that when quality items or services are paid dearly for they are more valued and forever treasured. I like a sale or a cheap commodity in certain situations as well as the next person, but accumulating a lot of stuff on the cheap has never seemed a worthwhile endeavor in its own right.

Probably most of the trees I will be selling will be ones in my galleries here and on BonsaiSite. Except for having too many trees, I wouldn't mind keeping them if no one's interested.

I hope the discussion continues - most interesting.

 

[Attila Soos]

You don't have to show what you have....but then your going to have to take my jabs also. Nuthin personal.... anyone who made the 500.00 statement would be wondering why I am interested.

Obviously, when I have a group of trees ready for sale, I will post either the pictures on this forum, or a link, depending on the venue I choose for showing them. No reason to do the jabs now, if you will have the chance to comment on the actual trees when the time comes. I would rather hear a meaningful comment, than general opinions on imaginary trees. I will be happy to hear the particular reason why I may be overestimating the quality of a certain tree. Hearing a fair opinion is never offensive. What can be offensive, is when people unfairly assume things about you.
Not everybody is keen to show their trees on the Internet. I know plenty of people who are just not interested in doing that. The quality of trees has nothing to do with this. It's a personal choice.

 

[Attila Soos]

I am not a businessman or a professional artist, hoping to earn my living with my creations. If I sell some trees, fine - hopefully a win-win situation all around, as are all legitimate market transactions. If I don't, I loose nothing - I still have my trees.

To a large extent, I think people in this society are spoiled by a sense of envy and entitlement. To me, I never expect to be given things for free, except gifts from dear friends and family, and if I want something of value I expect to pay a fair price for it. I understand if a friend might sell me something I want at a somewhat reduced price, and I am prone to do the same, but there is no expectation, no sense of entitlement.

In general, I believe in buying the best quality I can afford, and I believe that when quality items or services are paid dearly for they are more valued and forever treasured. I like a sale or a cheap commodity in certain situations as well as the next person, but accumulating a lot of stuff on the cheap has never seemed a worthwhile endeavor in its own right.

Very well put. This is what I like to hear - a no-nonsense, practical view on how to value other people's work.

Selling our tree can be a great learning experience and a chance to see our own trees with the eyes of others. It is one thing when somebody comments on a tree, and another when they are actually willing to pay money for it.

 

[grouper52]

Selling our tree can be a great learning experience and a chance to see our own trees with the eyes of others. It is one thing when somebody comments on a tree, and another when they are actually willing to pay money for it.

LOL! How true. How true. Money talks! "Sales" of my book in the bonsai community taught me all I need to know about that!

My wife and I opened and ran a store in a fairly upscale tourist town once, selling beautiful, high carat (mostly 21-24K) gold jewelry from around the world - something we knew something about. That was quite the education as well, in many ways. Customers came and went, passing up attractively priced and gorgeous investments that a few short years later were worth almost eight times as much, just in the price of the gold itself. They'd leave the store and go load up on touristy junk next door that could be had by the pound, believing they'd got a clever deal.

I believe it was P.T. Barnum who said, "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."

Our local club had a meeting a while back to which people were invited to bring items to sell. Among other items, I brought some pots I no longer wanted. Among these I had a couple of stunning old Japanese flame pots, rectangles, ones that are no longer made and impossible to find, I've heard. Striking pots in their own way, but no longer my style. I thought someone might enjoy them, so I offered them at prices that were far less than they were selling for even back when they could be had. I had apparently, however, created an unforgivable faux pas by pricing them well beyond the unspoken $5-20 price limit for such club activities, a point driven home to me quite publicly in angry and disgusted tones by one of the senior movers-and-shakers of the club who makes darn sure by the tone he sets that nothing moves or gets shook up in the local bonsai scene, ever. That was about the fifth club meeting I'd been to in eight years here, and my next to last one.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Our local club had a meeting a while back to which people were invited to bring items to sell. Among other items, I brought some pots I no longer wanted. Among these I had a couple of stunning old Japanese flame pots, rectangles, ones that are no longer made and impossible to find, I've heard. Striking pots in their own way, but no longer my style. I thought someone might enjoy them, so I offered them at prices that were far less than they were selling for even back when they could be had. I had apparently, however, created an unforgivable faux pas by pricing them well beyond the unspoken $5-20 price limit for such club activities, a point driven home to me quite publicly in angry and disgusted tones by one of the senior movers-and-shakers of the club who makes darn sure by the tone he sets that nothing moves or gets shook up in the local bonsai scene, ever. That was about the fifth club meeting I'd been to in eight years here, and my next to last one.

What!??!?!?!? Was I there ???? On the other note I know what you are talking about ... I hope in the future I can do something about that

 

[Smoke]

Obviously, when I have a group of trees ready for sale, I will post either the pictures on this forum, or a link, depending on the venue I choose for showing them. No reason to do the jabs now, if you will have the chance to comment on the actual trees when the time comes. I would rather hear a meaningful comment, than general opinions on imaginary trees. I will be happy to hear the particular reason why I may be overestimating the quality of a certain tree. Hearing a fair opinion is never offensive. What can be offensive, is when people unfairly assume things about you.
Not everybody is keen to show their trees on the Internet. I know plenty of people who are just not interested in doing that. The quality of trees has nothing to do with this. It's a personal choice.

Fair enough....you would make a great politician.

 

[Attila Soos]

Our local club had a meeting a while back to which people were invited to bring items to sell. Among other items, I brought some pots I no longer wanted. Among these I had a couple of stunning old Japanese flame pots, rectangles, ones that are no longer made and impossible to find, I've heard. Striking pots in their own way, but no longer my style. I thought someone might enjoy them, so I offered them at prices that were far less than they were selling for even back when they could be had. I had apparently, however, created an unforgivable faux pas by pricing them well beyond the unspoken $5-20 price limit for such club activities, a point driven home to me quite publicly in angry and disgusted tones by one of the senior movers-and-shakers of the club who makes darn sure by the tone he sets that nothing moves or gets shook up in the local bonsai scene, ever. That was about the fifth club meeting I'd been to in eight years here, and my next to last one.

Yes, I always thought that you get the best deals on these club meetings. Which means that the items are to be sold for a rather nominal amount, more symbolic than actual market value. It's a good place to make a donation to the club.
So, that must be the worst place to sell anything of value. E-bay seems like a much better choice, in that case.

 

[grouper52]

What!??!?!?!? Was I there ???? On the other note I know what you are talking about ... I hope in the future I can do something about that

Dan was there, but I'm pretty sure that you and Vic weren't. You would have said something about those pots! I don't think I was with or near Dan when I got my dressing down, but I was with several others. A crystalizing moment.

The club has always perplexed me greatly. The marginalization of Dan to a mere token by a core power structure hellbent on truly stultifying mediocrity is palpable. Yes, Dan is not easy to get along with for some people, but my gosh! Do people simply want to belong to a club with "bonsai" in its name, or do they want to actually learn to create great trees and really enjoy some of what the art has to offer? It'd be wonderful if you can effect some changes there.

 

[Brian Underwood]

Indeed; http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...=p3286.c0.m1539&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=100&_udhi=

Most of these trees do not sell though, and take it from me, they are a huge pain to ship properly.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Dan was there, but I'm pretty sure that you and Vic weren't. You would have said something about those pots! I don't think I was with or near Dan when I got my dressing down, but I was with several others. A crystalizing moment.

The club has always perplexed me greatly. The marginalization of Dan to a mere token by a core power structure hellbent on truly stultifying mediocrity is palpable. Yes, Dan is not easy to get along with for some people, but my gosh! Do people simply want to belong to a club with "bonsai" in its name, or do they want to actually learn to create great trees and really enjoy some of what the art has to offer? It'd be wonderful if you can effect some changes there.

Wow! The marginalization I believe is due to the easy access and the limited desire to attempt anything.... lots of "I could never do that!" .... and for the most part yes in our little club over here most of the people are there for a social gathering .... in reality there are two clubs... one by name and one that meets at a separate more "garden" like setting (we just need to convince the other young guy to come hang out)

I can say that I have seen some growth in a few other members who with the gaining of a little more freedom that comes with retirement have seemed to put a little more excitement into the art.... so hopefully they will get a bit more excited...

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Indeed; http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...=p3286.c0.m1539&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=100&_udhi=

Most of these trees do not sell though, and take it from me, they are a huge pain to ship properly.

They don't sell because the people are insane ... unless my definition of "Huge" has changed a 1" satsuki trunk does not count.... maybe when you get to 8-9" we can start to talk...

ok this is starting to sound like a Viagra ad.... I'm done...

 

[Attila Soos]

Wow! The marginalization I believe is due to the easy access and the limited desire to attempt anything.... lots of "I could never do that!" .... and for the most part yes in our little club over here most of the people are there for a social gathering .... in reality there are two clubs... one by name and one that meets at a separate more "garden" like setting (we just need to convince the other young guy to come hang out)

I can say that I have seen some growth in a few other members who with the gaining of a little more freedom that comes with retirement have seemed to put a little more excitement into the art.... so hopefully they will get a bit more excited...

Yes, the culprit is the good old "catering to the lowest common denominator". When an old fart yells at me sometning like" don't touch the moss, Sir!!!", my first thought is, to grab the idiot by the collars of his shirt, and throw him under the table. But then, I just choose to stay away.
For some strange reason, these types always seem to set the tone for the whole affair.

 

[Attila Soos]

They don't sell because the people are insane ... unless my definition of "Huge" has changed a 1" satsuki trunk does not count.... maybe when you get to 8-9" we can start to talk...
.

...on the other hand, having a lot of bad apples actually helps those who are reliable and consistent in their quality. The good and decent people can easily stand out, and people will recognize them after a while, directing more business towards them. Whenever you need a good tree for a decent price, you know where to go, instead of taking chances and risking your money with strangers.
This is why I think that having a small website, where people can get to know you (and where to contact you) is a good help, when selling on E-Bay.

 

[Attila Soos]

... they are a huge pain to ship properly.

Shipping/packaging is something that a vendor should nail down to the last detail. It's not that complicated, and duct-tape is very cheap. About ten years ago, I shipped over 100 trees from Vancouver,Canada to Los Angeles, and they had to clear the USDA. They arrived in perfect condition, every single one of them...and I only had two days to package all of them, in a Vancouver hotel.

 

[Bill S]

"Do people simply want to belong to a club with "bonsai" in its name, or do they want to actually learn to create great trees and really enjoy some of what the art has to offer? It'd be wonderful if you can effect some changes there."

Good luck on this front, I know of a club that really has just a few of the members that own and work on trees, the rest apparently think it's a cool thing to hang about.

You guys are prolly on the right track of having a quasi separate "study group". Then as others see the trend UP hopefully others will want to really join in, it's a hard thing to deal with getting others to really join in, for a lot of reasons(good and bad).

 

[Ang3lfir3]

You guys are prolly on the right track of having a quasi separate "study group". Then as others see the trend UP hopefully others will want to really join in, it's a hard thing to deal with getting others to really join in, for a lot of reasons(good and bad).

some have tried to create study groups...but the club size is too small to support a rotating attendance.... people can't make them all and so they end up dissolving ... stuff like that... its rough but we still seem to make it....