Forms, and naturalistic too!

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John Naka said: "Don't make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like a tree".

I said that statement was asinine. My opinion...I will explain.

It would read better if it said;

"Don't make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like an artistic representation of a tree".

Too wordy I think, but I can live with it. In my opinion bonsai don't look like trees at all. Sure they represent trees and some do a better job at looking like a tree found in nature than others. This does no negate the fact that even trees as bonsai that don't look like natural trees can be beautiful. I just look at them with a different set of ideals.

In recent posts it has been brought up that styling D trees with foliage pads is not the right thing to do. Phooey, if you want to make a D tree with foliage pads then do so. As it ramifies, unless all the twigs are cut off it will fill in and become a mass of foliage, something D trees are supposed to have, anyway.

Below are some traditionally styled black pines in the true Japanese way. Do they look like trees in nature?
No.
Can I appreciate them equally with trees that look more natural in appearance?
Yes, of course I can
 

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greerhw

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Welcome to the green side...........:cool:

keep it green,
Harry
 

Smoke

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Now we have some pines that have a more rugged appearance. More natural, something more apt to being run into while walking thru the forest.

Odd that somehow most of the more natural looking trees I find have rather thin trunks. More bunjin in appearance. This is how trees are in nature. Most trees in nature do not have sumo trunks with massive taper, something we find appealing in bonsai.


Those with photo's to add please do so. I would especially like to see more massive trunks with a more natural apppearance. I would also like to hear about "your" take on bonsai forms.
 

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You could argue that an old dutch master who painted Tulips that could not possibly have existed was a fraud.

I wonder if such a thing was ever a crime.
 

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One could start by visiting Kokyo Gaien National Park.
 

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Smoke

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One could start by visiting Kokyo Gaien National Park.
Text from that picture:

There are approximately 2,000 Japanese Black Pine trees planted in the National Garden Plaza area. The inside of the Imperial Palace Garden consists mostly of dense woodland gardens, which are maintained in their natural condition. In contrast, this Garden area which is wide and of open design. The single plantation of Japanese Black Pines in this area creates a peaceful and solemn atmosphere.
 The Japanese Black Pines woodland is considered to be one of the finest views in the National Gardens.
 Before Edo Castle was built, this area was an inlet of Tolyo Bay, and thousands of Japanese Black Pines grew naturally along the shores of this inlet and Tokyo Bay. The first Japanese Black Pines were planted in the Garden Plaza area in 1888.
 
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One could start by visiting Kokyo Gaien National Park.
Text from that picture:

There are approximately 2,000 Japanese Black Pine trees planted in the National Garden Plaza area. The inside of the Imperial Palace Garden consists mostly of dense woodland gardens, which are maintained in their natural condition. In contrast, this Garden area which is wide and of open design. The single plantation of Japanese Black Pines in this area creates a peaceful and solemn atmosphere.
 The Japanese Black Pines woodland is considered to be one of the finest views in the National Gardens.
 Before Edo Castle was built, this area was an inlet of Tolyo Bay, and thousands of Japanese Black Pines grew naturally along the shores of this inlet and Tokyo Bay. The first Japanese Black Pines were planted in the Garden Plaza area in 1888.
How about a link to the source?
 
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John Naka said: "Don't make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like a tree".

I said that statement was asinine. My opinion...I will explain.

It would read better if it said;

"Don't make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like an artistic representation of a tree".
I don't know Al, I would much rather have a bonsai that looked like a tree than a tree that looked like a bonsai.....I think we commonly call those types, cookie cutters.

Before we get into this, could you explain exactly what an artistic representation of a tree is? What is the difference between representing a tree and representing an artistic tree or artistically representing a tree, is it the tree that is artistic or the representation?

This is good timing, I have been pounding out an article on something similar and I am curious as to your thoughts as expressed above.

First you called Naka's words asinine and changed his oft quoted words "don't make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like a tree" to "Don't make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like an artistic representation of a tree." It is obvious you agree with Naka that a bonsai should look like a tree, but you simply added the word "artistic" to his words. I could argue the point that "art" should be a given in bonsai, and creating artistic trees is the ultimate goal, and counter by simply telling you that you are preaching old gospel here, but something else is on my mind....

You then went on about trunk sizes, claiming that "most trees in nature do not have sumo trunks with massive taper" and that "most of the more natural looking trees I find have rather thin trunks. More bunjin in appearance." This is odd, considering that you just said that bonsai should be an artistic representation of a tree, are not sumo trunks, thin trunks, oddly twisted trunks, split trunks, and the like, simply artistic representations (not copies) of trees which may or may not actually exist in nature?

Point being that if you truly believe that bonsai should be artistic representations of trees, as you claim, then what exists in nature actually has no relevance to bonsai design. In fact, what is natural would also play no role what-so-ever and be simply optional.


I guess you'll just have to google it like I did!
The link wasn't for me Al, it was for the common courtesy of acknowledging the source of not only your quote, but the image posted by redtuck as well.


Will
 
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Smoke

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I don't know Al, I would much rather have a bonsai that looked like a tree than a tree that looked like a bonsai.....I think we commonly call those types, cookie cutters.

Call um what you want, I still appreciate them (cookie cutters) and find room for bonsai no matter it's form. I don't hold one in higher regard becasue of it's shape or form. If it's good then all the labels mean nothing to me.

Before we get into this, could you explain exactly what an artistic representation of a tree is? What is the difference between representing a tree and representing an artistic tree or artistically representing a tree, is it the tree that is artistic or the representation?

This is good timing, I have been pounding out an article on something similar and I am curious as to your thoughts as expressed above.

I have been told by you numerous times that my thoughts mean nothing to you so I guess you'll have to do a litlle more research.

First you called Naka's words asinine and changed his oft quoted words "don't make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like a tree" to ""Don't make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like an artistic representation of a tree." It is obvious you agree with Naka that a bonsai should look like a tree, but you simply added the word "artistic" to his words. I could argue the point that "art" should be a given in bonsai, and creating artistic trees is the ultimate goal, and counter by simply telling you that you are preaching old gospel here, but something else is on my mind....

...no, you keyed in on artistic..."my" key word is representation, always has been always will be. I made that clear in the beginning of the thread. Remember it said MY OPINION. You are entitled to yours. Start your own thread starting with your opinion.


You then went on about trunk sizes, claiming that "most trees in nature do not have sumo trunks with massive taper" and that "most of the more natural looking trees I find have rather thin trunks. More bunjin in appearance." This is odd, considering that you just said that bonsai should be an artistic representation of a tree, are not sumo trunks, thin trunks, oddly twisted trunks, split trunks, and the like, simply artistic representations (not copies) of trees which may or may not actually exist in nature?

Exactly, so whats your point? I think I said that and do find that trees in nature have vastly small trunks for canopy spreads.

Point being that if you truly believe that bonsai should be artistic representations of trees, as you claim, then what exists in nature actually has no relevance to bonsai design. In fact, what is natural would also play no role what-so-ever and be simply optional.

I guess we will read that in your upcoming article won't we.


The link wasn't for me Al, it was for the common courtesy of acknowledging the source of not only your quote, but the image posted by redtuck as well.

Good, then do me the courtesy of starting at the top next time.


Two trees
Both give representations of what a tree looks like.
One is artistic
One is not.
 

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I was under the impression when I "Got into Bonsai" it was a hobby, never knowing it would be so controversial, but I should have know ego's would get involved, they have in every hobby I've been in, that's one reason I quit a lot of them. I will continue to do bonsai my way, making my own decisions, staying away from judged events. I'm too old and too tired for a bunch of crap over what should be a relaxing hobby, man, you guys sure expend a lot of energy to make a mountain out of a molehill.

keep it green,
Harry
 

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I was under the impression when I "Got into Bonsai" it was a hobby, never knowing it would be so controversial, but I should have know ego's would get involved, they have in every hobby I've been in, that's one reason I quit a lot of them. I will continue to do bonsai my way, making my own decisions, staying away from judged events. I'm too old and too tired for a bunch of crap over what should be a relaxing hobby, man, you guys sure expend a lot of energy to make a mountain out of a molehill.

keep it green,
Harry
If it's a relaxing hobby to you then you are not doing enough of your own work! There is nothing relaxing going on in my backyard.

I could say the same about politics:D
 

greerhw

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If it's a relaxing hobby to you then you are not doing enough of your own work! There is nothing relaxing going on in my backyard.

I could say the same about politics:D
I worked had all my life, so I wouldn't have to work when I retired, if I want to see a beautiful painting, I would rather go to an art museum and not try to paint it myself.............;)

keep it green,
Harry

PS: politics is just blowing off steam, I get along better with the wife that way...
 
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Call um what you want, I still appreciate them (cookie cutters) and find room for bonsai no matter it's form. I don't hold one in higher regard becasue of it's shape or form. If it's good then all the labels mean nothing to me.
But were you not just claiming artistic representation? Can't have it both ways Al, which is it?

I have been told by you numerous times that my thoughts mean nothing to you so I guess you'll have to do a litlle more research.
No, that would be your opinions......my research is done, if yours is then maybe some intelligent discussion will develop, if not, then allow me to point out the obvious flaws in the "opinions" you posted.

...no, you keyed in on artistic..."my" key word is representation, always has been always will be. I made that clear in the beginning of the thread. Remember it said MY OPINION. You are entitled to yours...
Sorry Al, this makes no sense, you changed Naka's words "don't make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like a tree" to "Don't make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like an artistic representation of a tree." Naka's "...look like a tree" is "representing" a tree, you added the word "artistic" in your rewrite.

You stick with your opinion Al, I search for more valuable things....


Exactly, so whats your point? I think I said that and do find that trees in nature have vastly small trunks for canopy spreads.
Point being that if you truly believe that bonsai should be artistic representations of trees, as you claim, then what exists in nature actually has no relevance to bonsai design. In fact, what is natural would also play no role what-so-ever and be simply optional.

You used some trees from nature as examples and said, "Odd that somehow most of the more natural looking trees I find have rather thin trunks. More bunjin in appearance. This is how trees are in nature." Are you aware Al that the Bunjing or Literati style of bonsai is the only style that was not taken from trees in nature? I find it somewhat enlightening that the one style of many that you chose to use as an example of how trees grow in nature is the only style that wasn't based on nature at all.


All the inconsistencies aside, what exactly are you trying to say Al? Are you saying that trees should be based solely on how they grow in nature or are you saying they need artistic representation and as such, nature need not be observed?




Will
 
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I was under the impression when I "Got into Bonsai" it was a hobby, never knowing it would be so controversial, but I should have know ego's would get involved, they have in every hobby I've been in, that's one reason I quit a lot of them. I will continue to do bonsai my way, making my own decisions, staying away from judged events. I'm too old and too tired for a bunch of crap over what should be a relaxing hobby, man, you guys sure expend a lot of energy to make a mountain out of a molehill.
With all due respect Harry, then why the hell are you in this thread? if it doesn't suit your delicate sensibilities, why jump in? Hell, half your political threads are garbage to me, I ignore them, the ones that are not I participate in, it's really not that difficult.


Don't you have a gun to clean or something? Are you so bored you have to read crap you don't like? Here, try this http://home.nra.org/#/home it keeps me busy for hours sometimes.



Will
 

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But were you not just claiming artistic representation? Can't have it both ways Al, which is it?


No, that would be your opinions......my research is done, if yours is then maybe some intelligent discussion will develop, if not, then allow me to point out the obvious flaws in the "opinions" you posted.


Sorry Al, this makes not sense, you changed Naka's words "don't make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like a tree" to "Don't make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like an artistic representation of a tree." Naka's "...look like a tree" is "representing" a tree, you added the word "artistic" in your rewrite.

You stick with your opinion Al, I search for more valuable things....




Point being that if you truly believe that bonsai should be artistic representations of trees, as you claim, then what exists in nature actually has no relevance to bonsai design. In fact, what is natural would also play no role what-so-ever and be simply optional.

You used some trees from nature as examples and said, "Odd that somehow most of the more natural looking trees I find have rather thin trunks. More bunjin in appearance. This is how trees are in nature." Are you aware Al that the Bunjing or Literati style of bonsai is the only style that was not taken from trees in nature? I find it somewhat enlightening that the one style of many that you chose to use as an example of how trees grow in nature is the only style that wasn't based on nature at all.


All the inconsistencies aside, what exactly are you trying to say Al? Are you saying that trees should be based solely on how they grow in nature or are you saying they need artistic representation and as such, nature need not be observed?




Will
yes, sir....
 

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the sir was added cause my post was too short
 

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With all due respect Harry, then why the hell are you in this thread? if it doesn't suit your delicate sensibilities, why jump in? Hell, half your political threads are garbage to me, I ignore them, the ones that are not I participate in, it's really not that difficult.


Don't you have a gun to clean or something? Are you so bored you have to read crap you don't like? Here, try this http://home.nra.org/#/home it keeps me busy for hours sometimes.



Will
Hit a nerve did I, never mind, it's not worth it, I deleted most of my post. I'm off to bed now, so you may have the last word, man your panties are in a wad tonight, shame on you Al.

keep it green
Harry.
 
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Smoke

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I worked had all my life, so I wouldn't have to work when I retired, if I want to see a beautiful painting, I would rather go to an art museum and not try to paint it myself.............;)

keep it green,
Harry

PS: politics is just blowing off steam, I get along better with the wife that way...
There you go Harry...just blowing off steam.

During daylight hours I am working on trees or the back yard. Nothing on TV and sparring with Will Heath is better entertainment than that pitiful showing Pittsburgh just gave. I lost 10.00 bucks on that one. Besides Will is doing research for a new article and he knows the best place to get it is when I post:eek:
 
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Besides Will is doing research for a new article and he knows the best place to get it is when I post:eek:
Absolutely, no better place for inconsistencies, misinformation, and general misconceptions! :p



Will
 
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