From pot to training box

Krone

Shohin
Messages
266
Reaction score
102
Location
Slovenia
USDA Zone
7b
Hey guys!
Couple of questions regarding the transition of a tree from pot to training box.
Specifically trees bought in ordinary gardening centers planted in ordinary field/planting soil.

What kind of medium should be used in the training pot?
The same as would be used in bonsai pot? Only pumice as if would be collected tree? Something completely different maybe?

Also i can not really figure it out how big training boxes should i build/buy in comparison with diameter of current trunk?

Many thanks for all the answers!
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,908
Reaction score
45,579
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
Trunk Training or Branch Training?

I guess this will make quite the difference.

Sorce
 
Messages
1,100
Reaction score
2,166
Location
Tennessee
USDA Zone
7a
Ive had good luck using the same components of use in my finished bonsai. It gets expensive though. I've also had decent luck just using a mix of NAPA 8822 and grit - much cheaper but around my area NAPA is a crap shoot on quality. I've got some that has not broken down in 3 seasons and some that turned to mush in a summer. You might check your local tractor supply or coop for a component called "mule mix" which is like turface I believe. I haven't used it myself but several NBS club members use it with good results in place of NAPA as a cheaper component.
 

Krone

Shohin
Messages
266
Reaction score
102
Location
Slovenia
USDA Zone
7b
Trunk Training or Branch Training?

I guess this will make quite the difference.

Sorce

Can you elaborate on this please? Did not know that this kind of a fact would make a big difference.
 

Paradox

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,338
Reaction score
11,405
Location
Long Island, NY
USDA Zone
7a
To transition from a nursery pot to a training pot, I usually lava and pumice for junipers and pines and with deciduous Ill add in Akadama for a little more moisture retention.
Ive generally been able to reuse the lava and pumice if the tree that came out of it was healthy, sometimes even on the same tree when repotting it.
NEVER resuse soil from a sick tree.

Trunk vs branch isnt relevent at this point, you are just trying to transition the tree from deep narrow pot to a wide shallow one
 

Krone

Shohin
Messages
266
Reaction score
102
Location
Slovenia
USDA Zone
7b
Don't you need Akadama (beside for the water retention) for the promotion of the fine roots?
And also, in what ration do you mix lava and pumice when using only these two components?
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,908
Reaction score
45,579
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
Can you elaborate on this please? Did not know that this kind of a fact would make a big difference.

To elaborate, my next thought was, well hell, initial branching and fine branching are different too.
Where your soil for initial branching will be the same as trunk thickening soil since that fast growth will help.

We transition to a less retentive soil, to train fine branching. Less retentive for more control. You can give "just enough" water to Bonsai Soil. You can't give "just enough" water to a tree in nursery soil.

This will depend on the decision I was talking to you about in that other thread.

If you will train the full trees as is, you can put them into a bonsai soil.

If you want to do "chops and regrowths" a nursery pot soil situation may be better.

Of course, there are many variables, but all these decisions are interlinked.

Sorce
 

Krone

Shohin
Messages
266
Reaction score
102
Location
Slovenia
USDA Zone
7b
What would happen if i would use 100% pumice for instance?
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,908
Reaction score
45,579
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
What would happen if i would use 100% pumice for instance?

I don't know how often them fellers water 100% pumice but it's not a great solo for me.

And I'd even bet it actually sucks, we just go off one or 2 exceptional instances to say it's good.

Someone is just trying to sell pumice.

Sorce
 

Krone

Shohin
Messages
266
Reaction score
102
Location
Slovenia
USDA Zone
7b
Nah... Am just asking because i know that is good for collected trees. So that's why i was simply curious what would happen. :)
 

bonsaichile

Omono
Messages
1,264
Reaction score
1,364
Location
Denver, CO
USDA Zone
5b
I don't know how often them fellers water 100% pumice but it's not a great solo for me.

And I'd even bet it actually sucks, we just go off one or 2 exceptional instances to say it's good.

Someone is just trying to sell pumice.

Sorce
Non sense. Pumice alone works really well for collected conifers. In the hot and dry Colorado summers, I water once a day. Ponderosas and lodgepoles love it. I do the same with spruce, but keep them in more shade. To say that it does not work because it hasnt worked for you is highly misleading.
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,908
Reaction score
45,579
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
Non sense. Pumice alone works really well for collected conifers. In the hot and dry Colorado summers, I water once a day. Ponderosas and lodgepoles love it. I do the same with spruce, but keep them in more shade. To say that it does not work because it hasnt worked for you is highly misleading.

I DID NOT SAY IT DOES NOT WORK.

Sorce
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,908
Reaction score
45,579
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
I think "collected conifer" may be the key.

As, it is a good "new" soil for old soil roots to go populate.

Whereas the wall, as we speak about in regards to slippotting and adding new outer soil, is less penetrable with other media.

Sorce
 

bonsaichile

Omono
Messages
1,264
Reaction score
1,364
Location
Denver, CO
USDA Zone
5b
I DID NOT SAY IT DOES NOT WORK.

Sorce
yes you did. You always do the same: post a completely wrong rant based on absolutelt nothing (full moon anyone?) and when called on it, deny habing said that. As if we could not read the messages. 🤣🤣🤣
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,908
Reaction score
45,579
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
As if we could not read the messages

You explain to me when I said that.

Context my friend. Context.

Show me some more "completely wrong rants", please.

Maybe we can have a good discussion.

It's doubtful though.

Sorce
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,908
Reaction score
45,579
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
So that's why i was simply curious what would happen

Don't want you to miss the important stuff amidst the ridiculousness that is...🤐


This IS important. As you are speaking of "from pots" not collected conifers.
I think "collected conifer" may be the key.

As, it is a good "new" soil for old soil roots to go populate.

Whereas the wall, as we speak about in regards to slippotting and adding new outer soil, is less penetrable with other media.

Sorce

Also, if it had any other "excellent use" scenarios, we'd use it all the time on everything.

Situation is key.

I do have a boxwood in it which is doing well.

I note boxwood roots as more pine-like than Deciduous, so "evergreen" could be a factor.

Perhaps Mycorrhiza finds pumice favorable, but without Mycorrhiza health is not vigorous.

More questions than answers.

Let's get on that good discussion.

Reading IS required.

Sorce
 

_#1_

Omono
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
1,274
Location
Houston, TX
USDA Zone
9a
not a great solo for me.

And I'd even bet it actually suck
It appears this is just a general, blanket statement. And I think that's where the issue lies. Statements with no examples to back it up.

What kinda trees was the 100% pumice used on?
How strong was the tree prior to repot?
Major root work performed?
Where was the trees places, full sun all day?
How often was the tree watered each day?

In another thread by @Krone, you stated your Ginnala died because you repoted too early. Suggesting that was the only reason it died (my understanding). But where's the detail?

Was the tree growing strong previous year?
Full bareroot?
Root pruned (hard)?
Experienced some late freezes?
Exposed to high wind?
Full sun all day?

Since you have some "unorthodox" horticultural practices, it might be a good idea to explain why it has worked for you and it might work for others. Newbs especially...

edit: posted late 🤔
 

BrianBay9

Masterpiece
Messages
2,753
Reaction score
5,373
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
I've used 100% pumice on conifers and deciduous. I works fine for development as long as you fertilize the heck out of it.
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,908
Reaction score
45,579
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
fertilize the heck out of it

This makes sense.

What is... "The heck out of"?

I was fish ferting every other day when I started my JBP seedling in Pumice.

Sorce
 

BrianBay9

Masterpiece
Messages
2,753
Reaction score
5,373
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
I did a test using chemical fertilizers and completely inorganic substrates. Fertilized once then watered as normal and did a chemical test for amines (ammonia and similar compounds) washing out the bottom of the pot as a test for persistence of fertilizer. I found it was undetectable after 5 - 7 days, so I fertilize once a week when I use only inorganics.
 
Top Bottom