From seed to bonsai

[Woocash]

I have got 100 or so seedlings from a variety of conifers which I have germinated this year and while obviously in no rush, I would like to know what the ideal scenario would be to transform them in to bonsai over the next few decades. The idea is that this is a semi hypothetical timetable that a professional would follow (assuming they use seeds and not cuttings or grafts). I have looked for this sort of information but I haven’t been able to find any truly long term progressions or plans anywhere. I realise that different species require different care regimes, but can anybody either point me in the direction of any good resources or offer a broad plan themselves? Ideally, I’m after fairly comprehensive information with regards to techniques of managing seedlings over the first few years, through to developmental transition, eventually ending up with a showable tree and how it was achieved. Not asking for much, eh? Thanks guys.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Have you checked the 6 year JBP contest?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I'm doing a lot from seed and I'm not a professional. I have a broad plan mapped out for every one of them, but it really depends on the type of conifer.

In general, I'm abiding to this system I made:
Goal 1: Getting as much buds and low growth as possible. Preventing tap roots.
Year 1: Inhibit as much growth as possible without compromising health. - Only feed outside of growing season, use the tiniest practical container to stop a taproot from forming. Size <1 inch.
Year 2: Inhibit as much growth as possible by cutting back. - No repotting, keep in the tiniest container, coppice, fertilize at the end of the year to start year 3 well. Size <1 inch.
Goal 2: Establish a base and lower trunk shape.
Year 3: Let grow, wire, work the roots. Destroy every seedling that doesn't look good. - There are buds everywhere, the tree is tiny, now it can grow and put on some wood. Feed all seasons, use a bigger container.
Year 4: Let grow agressively, re-wire and if needed then cut back. - Buds are still everywhere, the tree is getting bigger, possible (sacrifice) branch selection.
Goal 3: Go for good trunk structure, select main branches, future jins, think of possible designs in the future.
Year whatever: takes as long as needed. Start using bonsai techniques on shohin sized trees.

Thus far it seems to be working. I'm in year 2 and 3 in most of my seedlings.

 

[Shibui]

Yes. Not asking for much!
You probably can't find this info because there's no one way and no one timetable for development. So much depends on what you think bonsai should be. everyone will have a different opinion on when a tree is developed enough to move to the next phase and many won't even agree on the different phases a tree goes through. there's also a big difference in timing between species and varieties. Black pines grow far faster than shimpaku juniper for me so a pine could be ready for sale in 6 years but a juniper could take 10 to get to similar trunk development. Climate, soil type and your care will have a big influence on the years taken.
Ultimate size of the tree will also alter the timeline. Shohin tend to be quicker because the trunk reaches appropriate size much sooner and there's generally less ramification on branches and apex.

I guess a rough outline might look like:
Years 1-3 establishment: seedling growth in pots until the trunk is strong enough to go to faster development. Possibly some preliminary trunk wiring and bending while still flexible.
Years 2-10 Growth: Allow growth to thicken the trunk - larger pots, colanders or ground growing.
Years 4-15 Development: Back to grow pots to reduce growth rates a bit while scars heal and replacement apex is grown. Start to develop branching.
Years 8-20 Refinement: Reduce pots size again to build better ramification.

Of course some growers will prefer to grow in pots through entire development time. That does take longer but the results are almost always superior to fast grown trees as it is easier to control and you can see and manage small problems before they become big problems.

I see Wires prefers small shallow pots to inhibit 'tap' root. I prefer root pruning. It gives me better, more predictable results faster.

 

[Vance Wood]

If you try to grow bonsai from seed you are going to be constantly frustrated and feel like nature is working against you. The minimum you can expect to have a tree you can work on for a stick-in-o-potsai is about five years. To have something you might be able to style effectively is at least ten years and a credible bonsai you can proudly display at a club show is between thirty to fifty years. I am not trying to discourage anyone, I've been there, I just want to inform people it is effective only if you are really young and foolish enough to think that time does not matter. One day you may look back and wish you had spent that time working on some Yamadori or nursery tree.

 

[Woocash]

If you try to grow bonsai from seed you are going to be constantly frustrated and feel like nature is working against you. The minimum you can expect to have a tree you can work on for a stick-in-o-potsai is about five years. To have something you might be able to style effectively is at least ten years and a credible bonsai you can proudly display at a club show is between thirty to fifty years. I am not trying to discourage anyone, I've been there, I just want to inform people it is effective only if you are really young and foolish enough to think that time does not matter. One day you may look back and wish you had spent that time working on some Yamadori or nursery tree.

Thank you. I have both fortunately, so this is more of a lesson in horticulture, patience and coniferous trees. I grew up around deciduous trees, I know their habits and what to expect, but I feel that if I can watch how a coniferous tree develops from seed to maturity I am more likely to understand it‘s life cycle better. I take your point though, I have trees of varying maturity (just none of what you might call “bonsai”) so I’m not spending years just looking at a minuscule twig. I can spend years of looking at large stumps aswell.

 

[Woocash]

Yes. Not asking for much!
You probably can't find this info because there's no one way and no one timetable for development. So much depends on what you think bonsai should be. everyone will have a different opinion on when a tree is developed enough to move to the next phase and many won't even agree on the different phases a tree goes through. there's also a big difference in timing between species and varieties. Black pines grow far faster than shimpaku juniper for me so a pine could be ready for sale in 6 years but a juniper could take 10 to get to similar trunk development. Climate, soil type and your care will have a big influence on the years taken.
Ultimate size of the tree will also alter the timeline. Shohin tend to be quicker because the trunk reaches appropriate size much sooner and there's generally less ramification on branches and apex.

I guess a rough outline might look like:
Years 1-3 establishment: seedling growth in pots until the trunk is strong enough to go to faster development. Possibly some preliminary trunk wiring and bending while still flexible.
Years 2-10 Growth: Allow growth to thicken the trunk - larger pots, colanders or ground growing.
Years 4-15 Development: Back to grow pots to reduce growth rates a bit while scars heal and replacement apex is grown. Start to develop branching.
Years 8-20 Refinement: Reduce pots size again to build better ramification.

Of course some growers will prefer to grow in pots through entire development time. That does take longer but the results are almost always superior to fast grown trees as it is easier to control and you can see and manage small problems before they become big problems.

I see Wires prefers small shallow pots to inhibit 'tap' root. I prefer root pruning. It gives me better, more predictable results faster.

Yes, well I’ve been pondering for the few weeks since my first JBP popped it’s head up (Also European larch, scot’s pine, Norway spruce, Mugo pine, lacebark pine, jezo spruce, atlas cedar and cedar of Lebanon) what is the best, most efficient way to spend the early years of any conifer with the eventual goal of creating a bonsai. I’m happy experimenting and I have a relative amount of time on my side (being 35), but as with everything there is always correct procedure, or streamlining techniques. I just can’t find them in any particular detail. I appreciate it’s not easy past the initial 2 or 3 years to predict development in any species either really, let alone to generalise them. Hence, I suppose, why there are so few guides for developing bonsai from seed. I appreciate your timeline though thanks.

As an example though of difficult detail to find, you say you prune the roots. At what size(ish) would you prick out a seedling to cut the tap root? After how many sets of needles form is it safe to cut the tip to induce side shoots or back budding etc.

 

[Woocash]

I'm doing a lot from seed and I'm not a professional. I have a broad plan mapped out for every one of them, but it really depends on the type of conifer.

In general, I'm abiding to this system I made:
Goal 1: Getting as much buds and low growth as possible. Preventing tap roots.
Year 1: Inhibit as much growth as possible without compromising health. - Only feed outside of growing season, use the tiniest practical container to stop a taproot from forming. Size <1 inch.
Year 2: Inhibit as much growth as possible by cutting back. - No repotting, keep in the tiniest container, coppice, fertilize at the end of the year to start year 3 well. Size <1 inch.
Goal 2: Establish a base and lower trunk shape.
Year 3: Let grow, wire, work the roots. Destroy every seedling that doesn't look good. - There are buds everywhere, the tree is tiny, now it can grow and put on some wood. Feed all seasons, use a bigger container.
Year 4: Let grow agressively, re-wire and if needed then cut back. - Buds are still everywhere, the tree is getting bigger, possible (sacrifice) branch selection.
Goal 3: Go for good trunk structure, select main branches, future jins, think of possible designs in the future.
Year whatever: takes as long as needed. Start using bonsai techniques on shohin sized trees.

Thus far it seems to be working. I'm in year 2 and 3 in most of my seedlings.

Thanks for that. When you say “coppice” do you mean to literally chop new growth as it appears so that each time it encourages branching? I like the idea of inhibiting growth to encourage desirable traits, but does that retard the development or health of the tree? As in, do you think it could significantly increase the time taken to reach a state of “bonsai”, or is this to save time in the long run, or to just create the best tree no matter how long it takes?

 

[Woocash]

Have you checked the 6 year JBP contest?

Good plan. I forgot about that, I’ll give it a go.

 

[Woocash]

Also, does anybody have or know of any pictures of trees of say 20-40 years old seed to bonsai?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Thanks for that. When you say “coppice” do you mean to literally chop new growth as it appears so that each time it encourages branching? I like the idea of inhibiting growth to encourage desirable traits, but does that retard the development or health of the tree? As in, do you think it could significantly increase the time taken to reach a state of “bonsai”, or is this to save time in the long run, or to just create the best tree no matter how long it takes?

I snipped the growing tips off of some one year and two year old pines. This both retards growth and encourages branching.
It didn't affect the health to a substantial level. It did slow them down though.
I think it doesn't increase or reduce time in the long run, at one point or another you'll be cutting it back to get those lower branches to develop.
The thing with older material is that elongation happens in scale to the plant.
Example: A fifteen inch plant will produce 3 inch candles for instance. A one inch plant will produce half an inch candles, with some exceptions.
The latter will grow secondary branches at half an inch from the trunk, the former will produce secondary branches 3 inches from the trunk.
I think that the time it needs to be a good tree is more or less the same, but I like to think my method gives me a lot more options to choose from.

 

[BobbyLane]

Also, does anybody have or know of any pictures of trees of say 20-40 years old seed to bonsai?

this hornbeam is 30-40 years old from seed, the vid is from 2015

 

[GGB]

A big counter question is how large do you want the finished trees to be? or how thick at least? Also genus and species plays a big part. Ground growing versus container growing. I won;t attempt to answer your question because I haven't gone from seed to finished tree but all those things affect the outcome. As far as I can tell some trees are absolutely worth starting from seed while others aren't... again I'm still attempting to go full circle myself. Worst case scenario you get over it and you sell off your well maintained saplings online. That's what I do, you can rack up some serious propagation experience fast

 

[Woocash]

A big counter question is how large do you want the finished trees to be? or how thick at least? Also genus and species plays a big part. Ground growing versus container growing. I won;t attempt to answer your question because I haven't gone from seed to finished tree but all those things affect the outcome. As far as I can tell some trees are absolutely worth starting from seed while others aren't... again I'm still attempting to go full circle myself. Worst case scenario you get over it and you sell off your well maintained saplings online. That's what I do, you can rack up some serious propagation experience fast

Well, I’m not necessarily looking for a particular size, just a concise guide for how to get to a showable tree. Focusing on the first 5 to 10 years, I guess. (I mean, growing on is all just padding out really ) It all sounds so easy...ha! But how about, if one were to write a book about growing bonsai from seed, either where is the book or can someone write a book, please?

Part of my thinking is how to propagate decent prebonsai, with the idea of selling some in a few years, so moving on the experimental excess is a good idea. Mostly I just want inspiration of what is possible and how to head in that direction from the off. Any advice or tips you have gleaned in creating material from seed, no matter which stage you are currently at would be useful.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I was going to type one of my book length missives. Then I remembered Brent Walston has a business that is based on bringing young trees up to pre-bonsai. And he has been successful for years, and wrote the references I read before diving into seed propagation myself. Read Brent's various articles. He covers a wide range of species. Not many professionals write articles about the "nurseryman phase" of bonsai, as it is not very showy.

Articles About Bonsai

 

[GGB]

Leo is right, Brent has pretty good articles and 10 billion times the experience as me. His starts usually have pretty radial roots, and they're always healthy. I think the time lines written above are pretty helpful too.

THIS EXPAMPLE IS DECIDUOUS, I WOULDN'T WORK CONIFER ROOTS THIS WAY. Everyone is going to have their own way to do things. My personal plan is two years in a very shallow flat then they get root work and go into my yard where they will be dug up to have the roots worked on every 2 to 3 years as I see fit. Root work slows down growth for that season but there's no point in growing out giant logs with jacked up roots, those are a dime a dozen at nurseries. Then when the trunk is near where you'd like it to be, AND NOW I'm going theoretical because I haven't gotten to this stage yet.. they will be lifted and put into cedar boxes where primary branch work can begin or just giving them a year to fill the pot before being sold. I have a pretty good article about field growing in one of my bonsai today magazines. I'm happy to try sending pics of the article to you through private message but once again the example used is trident maple, so deciduous material will have a different course. If you listen to podcasts the there's a good episode of "asymmetry" (bonsai mirai's podcast) where Ryan speaks to Chris (?forget) and Gary Wood about how they grow out material at telperion farms. It's interesting and they have a lot of conifers they sell so it might be closer to home for you.

 

[Woocash]

I was going to type one of my book length missives. Then I remembered Brent Walston has a business that is based on bringing young trees up to pre-bonsai. And he has been successful for years, and wrote the references I read before diving into seed propagation myself. Read Brent's various articles. He covers a wide range of species. Not many professionals write articles about the "nurseryman phase" of bonsai, as it is not very showy.

Articles About Bonsai

Cheers Leo. You only get the because of the fantastic links you provided, so thank you. However, it was nearly only a like because I’m disappointed that you didn't actually leave a book length missive. Now I actually have to spend extra time clicking!

 

[Woocash]

Thank you Gavin. I appreciate that they are different but I’m always up for discovering new resources so that article would be useful nonetheless, but don't go out of your way if you don't have it already on your PC etc. I‘ve tried to listen to podcasts but I tend to zone out because of the lack of structure and casual nature, in general. I’ll see if I can find it though and see how it goes.

I think the main reason I’m so keen for the details is because I have an almost zero chance of observing coniferous trees at different life stages in the wild. Even mature woodland trees are 99.9% super straight poles grown for timber where the foliage is miles out of reach. In the main I’m most definitely a deciduous person, so I’m just trying to learn a bit about conifer physiology really.

 

[Shibui]

As an example though of difficult detail to find, you say you prune the roots. At what size(ish) would you prick out a seedling to cut the tap root? After how many sets of needles form is it safe to cut the tip to induce side shoots or back budding etc.

Much depends on the species and how the individual seedlings are growing and there is a wide window of opportunity.
I start pricking seedlings out of the seed tray as soon as they are large enough to hold. For conifers that can be before they even start to elongate the shoot out of the seed leaves. At that stage I cut the radicle (tap root) quite short. Even if there's no lateral roots visible. At this stage of life they can grow new parts really easy and should have lots of new lateral roots within a few weeks. Root pruning this early sets up a great root system for life.
Early intervention is not the only possibility though. I can transplant and root prune seedlings any time from emergence through the first year. It does not seem to matter about accepted root pruning season for the adults. Seedlings are precocious enough to manage root pruning any time. Through lack of time, space or materials some get left in the seed trays, occasionally for several years. they can be transplanted at the normal repotting time and still have roots pruned to promote good laterals and still end up as good bonsai but they will be well behind early transplants because they have competed for light and nutrients in limited space.

Emerging shoots can also be cut as soon as they are long enough to cut or can be left to grow and be cut back later. I've been cutting most pine seedlings early as it seems to give more low lateral branching and therefore more options to develop branches and trunks later. Pruning will set the growth back a bit but I feel that the resulting better quality more than makes up for the reduced growth. A one year setback early can often save several years of remediation at the other end of the development cycle.

There is no one right way and no one fastest way, just lots of different possibilities.

 

[Woocash]

Much depends on the species and how the individual seedlings are growing and there is a wide window of opportunity.
I start pricking seedlings out of the seed tray as soon as they are large enough to hold. For conifers that can be before they even start to elongate the shoot out of the seed leaves. At that stage I cut the radicle (tap root) quite short. Even if there's no lateral roots visible. At this stage of life they can grow new parts really easy and should have lots of new lateral roots within a few weeks. Root pruning this early sets up a great root system for life.
Early intervention is not the only possibility though. I can transplant and root prune seedlings any time from emergence through the first year. It does not seem to matter about accepted root pruning season for the adults. Seedlings are precocious enough to manage root pruning any time. Through lack of time, space or materials some get left in the seed trays, occasionally for several years. they can be transplanted at the normal repotting time and still have roots pruned to promote good laterals and still end up as good bonsai but they will be well behind early transplants because they have competed for light and nutrients in limited space.

Emerging shoots can also be cut as soon as they are long enough to cut or can be left to grow and be cut back later. I've been cutting most pine seedlings early as it seems to give more low lateral branching and therefore more options to develop branches and trunks later. Pruning will set the growth back a bit but I feel that the resulting better quality more than makes up for the reduced growth. A one year setback early can often save several years of remediation at the other end of the development cycle.

There is no one right way and no one fastest way, just lots of different possibilities.

Great info, thank you. And here was me thinking seedlings are fussy, delicate little things, when all they are is embryonic play-doh! Best get pricking then.