Frozen Top Soil Conifers. Help needed.

[Runstenen]

Posted this in a beginners group on FB, but no answers…. I watered the frozen top soil a LITTLE yesterday. Now I read that’s a big NO. Hope they are ok Help !!!

Question about watering frozen top soil :

I have a sort of coldframe for my conifers, which have plastic sheeting that if needed covers the frame on all sides. Inside the frame the pots and crates are standing in styrofoam boxes which are filled with mulch around the pots and inside the styros. Around all the styros is a barrier of bubble wrap which is also filled with mulch that also covers all the trees up until the 1st branch. As of now, the top mulch and some of the soil ( 2 crates containing pure pumice, 3 pots with conifer 3 part mix ) is frozen. If I manage to get my humidity meter deep enough i get a reading. Other than that I go with gut feeling for the watering and overall health check. My wife asked me what happened when watering frozen soil with cold water. From what I’ve read ( pretty extensively) this must be done if the trees shan’t dry out. That it even insulates the roots by giving them that needed humidity. All the styros have proper drain holes and are slightly tilted towards those.

What’s your experience in this ? Anything I should avoid or be careful with here ? Water temp ?

Other than that I have frost blankets over the trees inside the tent. And also a thermostat controlled heat pad under the styros.

The probe inside one of the boxes by the bottom of the pot as of today reads 3deg Celsius / 37deg Fahrenheit. The outdoor temp is -10deg Celsius / 14deg Fahrenheit.

My deciduous inside the garage get a stable airtemp of 2-4deg Celsius / 35-39 Fahrenheit so i feel pretty safe with that.

YES it’s my first winter And yes I’m overthinking/doing it, but that’s just me. Pic before pots and all moved in. If needed I’ll post a pic as it stands today.

Thanks for your expertise

 

[Underdog]

No worries. It rains when frozen at times.
Water before a hard freeze is expected is a good idea.
Where in the world are you and type of trees would help us help you. Put zone in your profile.

 

[Runstenen]

Hello. Im in 7a / Stockholm Sweden.

•2 Yamadori Scots Pines ( In crates w pure pumice )
•1 Mugo Pine ( in big growout pot w 33/33/33% conifer mix )
•1+1 Procumbens and Chinensis Junipers
( in pretty big growout pots w 33/33/33% conifer mix )

 

[Runstenen]

The Weather forecast from today until Christmas says freezing temps 24/7. The forecast says possible thaw 23-24 December. And that’s only a couple of hours a day. POSSIBLY ! These forecasts change all the time. Sometimes it’s more reliable to look out the window than to read the forecast .. LOL Before and after those 2 days are predicted to have temps way below zero deg Celsius ( 0 Celsius is the freezing point for those w Fahrenheit ) So if and when do I water ?

 

[Gabler]

The Weather forecast from today until Christmas says freezing temps 24/7. The forecast says possible thaw 23-24 December. And that’s only a couple of hours a day. POSSIBLY ! These forecasts change all the time. Sometimes it’s more reliable to look out the window than to read the forecast .. LOL Before and after those 2 days are predicted to have temps way below zero deg Celsius ( 0 Celsius is the freezing point for those w Fahrenheit ) So if and when do I water ?

Watering depends on a whole bunch of other factors, but generally, if your trees are shaded, they can go a long time without water in the winter.

A cold frame should help keep them from drying out. If you get snow, be sure to put some on the pots. It’ll insulate the roots and water them when it melts.

I don’t use any kind of cold frame. I just rely on rain and snow to water the trees after they go dormant for the winter. We get precipitation on a weekly basis, typically. After a full week without rain or snow, I’ll check the moisture level of the soil.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Water when they need it!

Taanishi, hello, and que tal!

Welcome to the TinyForest, Stranger!

Fear not the scurrying about... 'Tis simply the Woody Dwarves (Pa-Is) observing the proceedings.

...

Water them, when the days they are seeming "light".. correspond with a day/or time of day ABOVE OdC.

Welcome!

Pleasure to make your acquaintance!

 

[HorseloverFat]

zero deg Celsius ( 0 Celsius is the freezing point for those w Fahrenheit )

*Gruff Woodsman Voice*

My FARTS are zero degrees Celsius.

 

[Tieball]

The Weather forecast from today until Christmas says freezing temps 24/7. The forecast says possible thaw 23-24 December. And that’s only a couple of hours a day. POSSIBLY ! These forecasts change all the time. Sometimes it’s more reliable to look out the window than to read the forecast .. LOL Before and after those 2 days are predicted to have temps way below zero deg Celsius ( 0 Celsius is the freezing point for those w Fahrenheit ) So if and when do I water ?

Well…my trees are deciduous except for three pines in shallow boxes. So my conditions may not exactly apply to yours. They all remain outside frozen in boxes. I have a wind shield I use and it has the top fully open to all the elements including my weeks of sub zero temperatures and constant nightly temperatures in the single to low double digits, as well as sunny thawing days. I put them on the ground, in their boxes, in early October and I don’t touch them with watering or any other care until the end of March. The trees do just fine every year. The wind shield is primarily to keep the animals away and to buffer my low and sub zero windchills. Nature does a great job outdoors without my help.

 

[Runstenen]

Thanks for your Swift replies. As i figured then: im overprotecting them Will put snow on top of the mulch that covers the soil up until 1st branches tomorrow

 

[Runstenen]

*Gruff Woodsman Voice*

My FARTS are zero degrees Celsius.

@HorseloverFat Yeah. Its always confusing with celsius/fahrenheit data. I tend to Google all the time when i need to recalculate. I cant understand how you guys can hold on to these medieval units ( gallon, oz, feet, inch ) Haha. Guess you are used to it. But i still fel sorry for you … ( Peter Attenborough voice )

@Tieball All my decidious are in the garage at a stable 5deg celsius ( Feel free to calc to fh ) so I feel pretty safe there.

Thanks again for good input @allrepliesinthethread

 

[Underdog]

Hello. Im in 7a / Stockholm Sweden.

•2 Yamadori Scots Pines ( In crates w pure pumice )
•1 Mugo Pine ( in big growout pot w 33/33/33% conifer mix )
•1+1 Procumbens and Chinensis Junipers
( in pretty big growout pots w 33/33/33% conifer mix )

My guess as they would all laugh at your weather sitting on the ground out of the wind.

 

[dbonsaiw]

( Peter Attenborough voice )

hysterical

 

[Gabler]

I cant understand how you guys can hold on to these medieval units ( gallon, oz, feet, inch ) Haha. Guess you are used to it.

The US officially switched to the metric system half a century ago. But the government can’t force the general population to change. It’s a free speech issue. When there’s no one to enforce a top down change, the change doesn’t happen. Everyone kept using the same units they always had, because it’s easier than switching.

That said, Fahrenheit is objectively better than Celsius, and I’m prepared to fight anyone who says otherwise. Both are on a scale of 100, but Fahrenheit is calibrated to the range of temperatures humans typically experience. If Fahrenheit confuses you, replace the F with a %. A hundred degrees Fahrenheit is 100% hot. Fifty is only halfway hot, so a little chilly for a hairless ape, but very comfortable with a warm sweater.

 

[HorseloverFat]

@HorseloverFat Yeah. Its always confusing with celsius/fahrenheit data. I tend to Google all the time when i need to recalculate. I cant understand how you guys can hold on to these medieval units ( gallon, oz, feet, inch ) Haha. Guess you are used to it. But i still fel sorry for you … ( Peter Attenborough voice )

@Tieball All my decidious are in the garage at a stable 5deg celsius ( Feel free to calc to fh ) so I feel pretty safe there.

Thanks again for good input @allrepliesinthethread

Absolutely! I wish my brain worked "Metric First"... Well... Maybe "Half Metric".

But it's all this colonial schooling!

 

[HorseloverFat]

The US officially switched to the metric system half a century ago. But the government can’t force the general population to change. It’s a free speech issue. When there’s no one to enforce a top down change, the change doesn’t happen. Everyone kept using the same units they always had, because it’s easier than switching.

That said, Fahrenheit is objectively better than Celsius, and I’m prepared to fight anyone who says otherwise. Both are on a scale of 100, but Fahrenheit is calibrated to the range of temperatures humans typically experience. If Fahrenheit confuses you, replace the F with a %. A hundred degrees Fahrenheit is 100% hot. Fifty is only halfway hot, so a little chilly for a hairless ape, but very comfortable with a warm sweater.

Totally DO agree, about F and C, though.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

The US officially switched to the metric system half a century ago. But the government can’t force the general population to change. It’s a free speech issue. When there’s no one to enforce a top down change, the change doesn’t happen. Everyone kept using the same units they always had, because it’s easier than switching.

That said, Fahrenheit is objectively better than Celsius, and I’m prepared to fight anyone who says otherwise. Both are on a scale of 100, but Fahrenheit is calibrated to the range of temperatures humans typically experience. If Fahrenheit confuses you, replace the F with a %. A hundred degrees Fahrenheit is 100% hot. Fifty is only halfway hot, so a little chilly for a hairless ape, but very comfortable with a warm sweater.

Alright Gabler, I'll sign up for the gym and take some kickboxing classes, you better be prepared too!
The fahrenfight!

 

[Runstenen]

So whats your Thoughts / Experience with heat pads ? ( see pics )

Note 1 : I use a digital thermostat with a probe on a wire. The pads turns on at 32deg-Fh / Zerodeg-C and then turns off when the probe measures 39deg-Fh / +4degC. The probe for the thermostat is placed inside one of the styrofoam boxes in the mulch by the bottom of the pot.

Note 2 : The pads are not inside the styrofoam boxes but under them. There’s a blanket between so it doesn’t melt the styro. I guess that part of the heat bounces away since the boxes are designed to keep both heat and cold away from what’s inside it Hence the name insulated box.

All in all : We sometimes get -25 Celsius / -13 FH for weeks on end here. Better to be safe than sorry I thought.

Ps. I did the calculations this time, because you are so kind to this here Swedish noob …

 

[Gabler]

So whats your Thoughts / Experience with heat pads ? ( see pics )

Note 1 : I use a digital thermostat with a probe on a wire. The pads turns on at 32deg-Fh / Zerodeg-C and then turns off when the probe measures 39deg-Fh / +4degC. The probe for the thermostat is placed inside one of the styrofoam boxes in the mulch by the bottom of the pot.

Note 2 : The pads are not inside the styrofoam boxes but under them. There’s a blanket between so it doesn’t melt the styro. I guess that part of the heat bounces away since the boxes are designed to keep both heat and cold away from what’s inside it Hence the name insulated box.

All in all : We sometimes get -25 Celsius / -13 FH for weeks on end here. Better to be safe than sorry I thought.

Ps. I did the calculations this time, because you are so kind to this here Swedish noob …

I’ve only seen heat pads recommended to help seeds and cuttings. I would worry they’d dry out the soil and create frequent rapid fluctuations in soil temperature.

 

[Runstenen]

I’ve only seen heat pads recommended to help seeds and cuttings. I would worry they’d dry out the soil and create frequent rapid fluctuations in soil temperature.

Ok. Ill think on it. I can always turn it off if/when i get more of the same feedback. Thanks @Gabler

 

[dbonsaiw]

I watered the frozen top soil a LITTLE yesterday. Now I read that’s a big NO.

Not best practices, but likely no harm no foul. It does rain from time to time when things are frozen, so I wouldn't be too concerned.

Watering makes me crazy. But I love freezes because that's basically the only time I don't worry about watering. The water requirements over winter are substantially reduced. I have my trees in a giant mulch pile and hope that this helps the pots from freezing all the way through so the trees can still get some water.

Not that I really have any clue what I'm talking about, but I wouldn't worry too much about the conifers. They are likely good even if it gets much colder. I'm not even overly concerned about the maples and other deciduous. Personally, my only concern is for the dawn redwoods, but again hope that the large container and mulch will prevent it from freezing into a giant block of ice.