Frustrated with bonsai ability

[remist17]

I have been in this hobby for 3 years. I have tried to read all the books I can, join local groups and look on the internet. I am having a hard time learning or seeing the finished tree in a pre bonsai tree….did that make any sense? I am getting frustrated to a point where I want to put everything in the ground and grow as landscape material.

I was turned off from the local club for two reasons. They hold meetings on weekdays at 6pm. I do not get home from work until 530 and it’s a 1 1/2hr drive there. I also have not had very good responses from them on when meetings are held and special events.

So I turned to books and internet. I printed out over 100 photos of trees that I think I can “copy” which I know is not the way to do it. I look at the trees at my house and draw blanks. I also get nervous that I am going to kill the tree, performing activity at the wrong time, feeding wrong either too much or not enough and the list goes on.

It also does not help that I killed a nice elm and hornbeam from what I think was from fertilizer burn.

I know I need to let a lot of mine grow out. I am not going for the 3 or 4 inch trunks. Mostly smaller under 30” tall trees. I have a few trees that are 1 to 2” trunks and around 24”. These are prebonsai but I really do not know where to go.


Does anyone have suggestions, support, ideas for me or am I a lost cause? How do I see the finished tree or plan my activities.

 

[Juniperus Californica]

You're a lost cause - quit right now! There's no crying in Bonsai! Find a new hobby!

JC

 

[jk_lewis]

So I turned to books and internet. I printed out over 100 photos of trees that I think I can “copy” which I know is not the way to do it. I look at the trees at my house and draw blanks.

Nothing wrong with that.

I also get nervous that I am going to kill the tree, performing activity at the wrong time, feeding wrong either too much or not enough and the list goes on.

GET OVER IT! They're only trees; they have no nervous system, so they don't hurt.

All of us have killed their share of trees; I bet John Naka killed trees every now and then.

IT'S NO BIG DEAL.

On the club. A club newbie often has to take the bull by the horns and do a lot of the ice-breaking on his own. Some folks may always be standoffish. Ignore them. There will be someone who can and will help. The people who grouse the most about standoffish clubs usually haven't made any effort themselves.

But belonging to a club is ALWAYS the better option than trying to feel your way through books -- and especially the internet. Books have editors to fact check them, and bad ones go out of print. Any idiot can put something on the I'net and it stays there forever.

Clubs have shows. Shows often have workshops and workshops can help you begin to SEE the bonsai in a tree. Clubs also get info about larger, regional shows that always have workshops and demonstrations (and vendors).

If the timing at a club meeting is awkward, go directly from work, or just be a bit late; it can't be helped.

And, as far as seeing the tree in a plant, it will come -- with time.

Look for a few radial roots, a larger base and a tapering trunk. Branches can be worked on later. Avoid trees with a haphazard tangle of surface roots; the true mark of a beginner is one who things a rat's nest of rots at the base of a tree makes it a bonsai. They need to be orderly and come off the base like spokes in a wheeel (though perhaps not QUITE that evenly).

And don't be cheap. A $5.00 tree is NOT going to make a nice bonsai. 99% PLUS of the trees at Lowes, Home Depot and WalMart will never make good bonsai. You get what you pay for (and do not listen to the chorus that's bond to follow now from everyone claiming to have found a tree just like that. They're posted here by the dozens and I have to bite my tongue to keep from telling them what they really have.)

Good luck.

 

[tom tynan]

Learn to be patient with yourself ..as well as your trees. Understand the difference between the horticultural aspects of bonsai and tree design. Use the internt to see how others style a tree from rough material to a semi-finished tree. Take workshops at Natures Way in Harrisburg, PA. You can work with Jim or guest teachers and take a tree from rough material to the first step. Work with material that can be styled and not material that needs to grow out. Tom

Look at real trees in nature as well.

 

[John Ruger]

Don't be so hard on yourself, bonsai is supposed to make you happy

Try to sketch out ideas on paper with the material you are working with; they don't have to exact or perfect just rough ideas and then you can work from there. Visualize different options and be as bold or conservative as you feel like.

Look at pictures and lots of them from as many different sources as possible and see what others are doing or have done with similar materials. You don't need to copy from them, but learn.

Hang in there!

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Although i disagree with the previous poster (JC) (I am guessing he was joking), I would say that putting some of the trees back in the ground is actually not a bad idea. They will likely grow faster and you will get extra practice designing the top growth. You can also take it out to trim the roots every couple years. Maybe plant them in the ground in pond baskets to help restrain the bottom growth and make the extraction process easier. It also takes some of the edge off of having to water every day, although you will still have to check on them often in dry /hot weather. Without having to be so attentive to them it will help you with some of the patience aspect of bonsai which is a huge lesson in and of its self. Over fertilizing is a manifestation of impatience which few have had no experience with. fortunately my recent victim was kind enough to treat the over fertilization as a chemical defoliation and responded with new growth albeit not as strong.

If the material is too overgrown(really a luxury in most cases) start with the most basic of pruning of unnatural angles and long straight sections, bar branches. Pick your favorite two of any three branches coming out of any given spot (or one branch and a trunk) , giving priority to smaller and better movement branches. Start slowly from the outside/top and work your way down and then in, since the lower branches are the hardest to replace. You may find after removing the problem branches that design presents itself (for next year). Then focus on balancing growth; generally leave branches longer at the bottom because you want them to be thicker than the branches at the top.

Bonsai should be relaxing and not frustrating, although I know it can be sometimes. Try to take a step back from it by planting your material in the ground and wait until the designs and visions of the tree within the tree come to you instead of imposing or cutting without a plan or a vision.

Clubs can be a great way to learn, but sometimes bonsai people are a bit weird and/or antisocial. Don't let it get to you.

Good luck,
David

 

[remist17]

Thanks everyone. I didnt mean to come off as crying about it. I just was hoping some of the people on hear could relate and remember back when they first started and how they got to the point they are now.

Thank you for all the comments and will take them all. I will look at Natures way for some classes and see what I can do there. they are about 2 hours from me

 

[coh]

I don't know if "JC" was kidding, but regardless, there is some truth to what he says. Not everyone has the temperament for bonsai. I sometimes wonder if I fall into that group myself.

Anyhow, I'm at pretty much the same point as you. I took my first "beginners class" in June 2010, slightly over 3 years ago. I have a LOT of trouble seeing the potential bonsai in some material. Looking at photos and progression sequences helps a lot. Seeing quality bonsai in person helps. Doing "virts" either by hand or computer helps. Even then, it's often difficult to know what should be done to get a tree heading in the right direction.

I would recommend giving the club another try, when possible. I'm sure there is someone there who would be willing to help. Nature's Way should be a good resource, though I'm not sure how far that is for you.

One thing I have found surprising is that I have had more trouble keeping trees healthy and thriving in pots than I expected. This surprised me because I've been growing plants (mostly in the ground, but also in containers to some degree) for 30+ years. There's a lot of conflicting information out there about soils, watering, and fertilizing. Again, finding someone familiar with your local environment would probably be good, since those people should know what works with your climate, water quality, etc.

This winter I lost 2 trees, both large trunked with potentially very nice futures. One, a chinese quince, was well on its way. The other, a collected pear with great bark. I paid a lot (for me) for the first. Fortunately the second was free, but the loss of both stings equally. I'm pretty sure I didn't water them enough during the winter/early spring. I also have other trees that are struggling and I'm not sure why.

Well, hang in there - and learn from your mistakes!

Chris

 

[marcosolo]

You're a lost cause - quit right now! There's no crying in Bonsai! Find a new hobby!

JC

Suicide was invented for you....ass

 

[Poink88]

From a fellow newbie.

You need courage to experiment. And common sense to know the limits of the tree (and your ability)...in other words know when to start and more importantly when to stop.

I learn mostly by reading books/mags and looking at pics. I later try to apply what I see/learned.

Concentrate on the details. I think most are hang up on the overall picture (silhouette) that they fail to see how to properly build it and how to get there properly. You hear about "good bones" and that is what you should be concentrating on. It is the foundation/framework of the bonsai (learn to ignore the foliage or see past it).

In carpentry, they teach you how to measure twice, cut once. I take the opposite approach in bonsai....I cut in stages...creeping back slowly to get a smaller more compact tree (if possible). It may be in one sitting or over a year...but I intentionally do it to slow myself down and have multiple opportunities to evaluate the tree.

Learn to sacrifice and let go. No matter how nice a branch is...if it is not contributing to the tree, chop it. Do the right thing ASAP...the longer you wait, the more time you waste. Note that you might not realize the problem until a few years but this guideline should still kick in. Imagine building a nicely ramified branch on top of a straight stick...will you ever be happy with it?

Proportion is very important. In nature, a tree may be 100 feet tall. If you make a 10 inch bonsai version of it...keep in mind that an inch is equal to 10 feet!!! Thus, if you have 3 inches long straight branch...that is 30 feet in nature. Will that look natural? Regularly ask yourself those type of questions and you will slowly get there.

Good luck!!!

 

[Poink88]

99% PLUS of the trees at Lowes, Home Depot and WalMart will never make good bonsai. You get what you pay for (and do not listen to the chorus that's bond to follow now from everyone claiming to have found a tree just like that. They're posted here by the dozens and I have to bite my tongue to keep from telling them what they really have.)

There are nice trees there, not plentiful (1% ?) but can be found if you know how to look. I agree that the nice ones will cost more than $5.00.

I have a few that I believe are not bad even if they came from Lowe's that I posted earlier.

 

[Jake16]

I'm in the same boat as you with not having any clubs close and I also did all my learning through boock and internet. I also do the same thing with pictures of trees I like but when I save a picture, I then break down why I like the tree and why parts work or don't work. That has helping me with styling.

 

[Juniperus Californica]

remist, remist, remist,

Alright, you can continue doing bonsai, but remember this, a man of great wisdom once said, "...when the student is ready, the teacher appears."

It took me over 10 years to figure out Spider Mites were killing my pines - did I quit? I killed the first California Juniper I ever owned when I repotted it - did I quit? I've over pruned and
over fertilized to kill trees - did I quit? Almost half of the California Junipers I've ever collected have died - did I quit!!!!?

Every mistake I've made has taught me powerful, but difficult, lessons. But every new discovery in bonsai has inspired me to do more and be better! Hopefully, you'll find the light but remember, it's the journey that's most important.

Your Tough Love Bonsai Buddy,

JC

 

[Juniperus Californica]

Suicide was invented for you....ass

Hey marcosolo,

It's Mr. ass to you!!!

 

[fourteener]

I really encourage you to get around someone who knows more than you. An actual person. Bonsai is like guitar playin', language learnin'. You can learn it to a certain degree on your own, but being around people who can answer your real time questions creates an exponential learning curve.

Secondly an eye for bonsai can be a learned thing. Seeing point A and seeing point B and figuring out how to get there. People need to know their limitations. If you have a difficult time moving things from raw to finished, you might need to buy nicer material and learn how to be a good caretaker. To be honest, I'm the opposite. I think I have a good eye for design, but long term maintenance isn't as exciting.


Back to the top, Rosetta Stone will never be as good as having a friend who speaks the language your wanting to learn. My guess is there is someone near you with a lot of experience. Find them!!

 

[Bill S]

Suicide was invented for you....ass

and you are better why????

 

[october]

There is a real shortage of quality material out there. It could be that the material you are trying to find a good bonsai design in, may not necessarilly be there to begin with.

You must give yourself more time. I know it can be frustrating. One thing you have the advantage of is the many different media sources. The bonsai intenet community and other sources have come a long way in the last 15 years.

What might be very helpful is an intensive program. They usually cost a bit of money. However, they teach you a lot of information in a relatively short time. Sometimes clubs bring in a well respected bonsai artist and split the cost.

Also, John Naka's Bonsai Techniques 1 and 2 will definitely accelerate your learning. Probably some of the best books on bonsai.

Rob

 

[tmmason10]

I have had the same frustrations in the past and I can offer you how I went about fixing the situation.

First off, I joined the kaikou bonsai school at NE bonsai so that at least 4 times a year, I spent 5 hours of my time working on trees and learning from my teacher, John Romano. This set aside time devoted to learning, while seeing what other people were up to and what they were working on. This should feel similar to joining a club and getting the experience of being around members with years of experience.

Secondly, I weeded out all the projects that were futile or I was stuck on by trading stuff in, and throwing stuff out. I think you have taken these steps by putting lesser material in the ground. I then only bought trees that had redeeming qualities and good potential. Things that didn't need to bulk up too much, and really just needed refinement and a plan. This part is easier if the material is at the right stage of development. I realize that it costs more, but spending s few hundred dollars in a decent stock is much better than spending 25 dollars on material that belongs in the garden.

I still have a lot to learn, and I am still lost when looking at my trees sometimes, but I think I have enough with potential and structure to keep me positive about what I'm working on. I think it's best to have a small collection with good trees than a large collection of lost projects. These forums do offer a lot of information from time to time so the learning doesn't really stop.

 

[Bill S]

Thanks everyone. I didnt mean to come off as crying about it. I just was hoping some of the people on hear could relate and remember back when they first started and how they got to the point they are now.

Thank you for all the comments and will take them all. I will look at Natures way for some classes and see what I can do there. they are about 2 hours from me

Honestly you are about the same as everyone else here at first. There is a saying about "my first ten years as a beginner". We all have killed some, we all have taken off the wrong branches, we all didi some work at the wrong time.

I feel that untill you get enough hands on this will be the case, the more work you do the more confident you will become. Got to get your hands dirty, but I also feel you need different opinions on what you are working with. Try and get some workshop time when you can, and pick the teachers brain as much as you need.

A club can do you a world of good, try to get that time in with others. If not the local club, keep an eye on nurseries, many have some porgrams.

 

[Poink88]

I think it's best to have a small collection with good trees than a large collection of lost projects.

While I also seek trees with better potential, I chose to have a big collection to have more to practice on. My collection ranges from; seedlings, small cuttings, box store bought, mallsai, and urban yamadori/collected. I think all of them offer different learning opportunities.

I actually fancy my "stumps" since they offer the most challenge.

Only group missing from my collection is properly "finished" bonsai. LOL