Future of my Apple Seedlings

[B.uneasy]

As I have posted before, I have three apple seedlings. Saying that they survive, I have some questions. People have told me not to use apple trees, and Crabapples would be better. They have given me that along with the reasoning that Crabapples are naturally smaller, the fruits smaller, and the roots of an apple tree are hard to contain. People told me that since they grow so big naturally along with their big roots, they are not a good candidate even though people use maples, pine trees, etc and those trees get big! Although some people may not think a real apple tree is ideal for bonsai, am I going to occur any real problems or difficulties other than peoples personal preferences? Will the roots be an issue. I would appreciate all useful information!

 

[Shibui]

The roots will not be an issue. You have already pointed out some of the reasons.
Fruit size is the main reason for not using larger fruited apples for bonsai.

 

[B.uneasy]

The roots will not be an issue. You have already pointed out some of the reasons.
Fruit size is the main reason for not using larger fruited apples for bonsai.

Thats awesome, so as long as I make a nice sturdy base, and posibly add a nice support structure to help hold an apple or two I should be fine!

 

[B.uneasy]

If I cut in down fairly low in about two-three years do they back bud well? And would I beable to cut it down to a stump with no foliage and get branching very low?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Culinary apples, or "normal form" of apples can be used for bonsai. They have been used for bonsai. The only issue of note is the size of the fruit does not reduce. In general, for the vast majority of tree species, fruit and flowers do not reduce with bonsai techniques. The leaves will reduce nicely, but flowers and fruit will not. In general, large flowers are not usually viewed as a negative, so you will see almost no complaints about flowers being too large. *note: the exception is those who take the deep dive into the Satsuki azalea dungeon, those lunatics will complain about flower size.

With your apple, when it does get around to flowering, do not let too many fruit develop. The production of fruit takes a metabolic priority, and it is possible to exhaust a tree by allowing too many fruits to develop. And when the fruit develops, you are right, you might have to construct supports to keep the weight of the fruit from tearing the branch off the trunk.

Apples from seed, be aware, often apple seedlings to not get around to flowering for the first time for 10 to 20 years. Out of every batch of 100 or more seedlings, a small number will flower early, as soon as 5 years or so. The majority will begin flowering between 10 and 15 years, and a significant few will not get around to flowering until well over 20 years old. But during this time, you can develop a kick ass tree.

Once an apple begins flowering, it will flower every year, it is just a matter of running the "genetic clock" out to get the tree through the transition into mature growth.

Note, cuttings, air layers, and grafted scions from trees that are already mature enough to be flowering and producing fruit will continue to do so, as soon as the cutting, or air layer or scion is metabolically healthy enough to produce flower buds. Usually less than 5 years for a cutting.

Malus sieboldiana - Toringo Crab apple, at the National Bonsai Collection, Washington DC. Note the beautiful sense of proportion, the fruit are in scale with the tree.


Here are two culinary size apples, note how out of scale the fruit is. Okay if you are going for shock value, but no sense of proportion.

 

[B.uneasy]

Culinary apples, or "normal form" of apples can be used for bonsai. They have been used for bonsai. The only issue of note is the size of the fruit does not reduce. In general, for the vast majority of tree species, fruit and flowers do not reduce with bonsai techniques. The leaves will reduce nicely, but flowers and fruit will not. In general, large flowers are not usually viewed as a negative, so you will see almost no complaints about flowers being too large. *note: the exception is those who take the deep dive into the Satsuki azalea dungeon, those lunatics will complain about flower size.

With your apple, when it does get around to flowering, do not let too many fruit develop. The production of fruit takes a metabolic priority, and it is possible to exhaust a tree by allowing too many fruits to develop. And when the fruit develops, you are right, you might have to construct supports to keep the weight of the fruit from tearing the branch off the trunk.

Apples from seed, be aware, often apple seedlings to not get around to flowering for the first time for 10 to 20 years. Out of every batch of 100 or more seedlings, a small number will flower early, as soon as 5 years or so. The majority will begin flowering between 10 and 15 years, and a significant few will not get around to flowering until well over 20 years old. But during this time, you can develop a kick ass tree.

Once an apple begins flowering, it will flower every year, it is just a matter of running the "genetic clock" out to get the tree through the transition into mature growth.

Note, cuttings, air layers, and grafted scions from trees that are already mature enough to be flowering and producing fruit will continue to do so, as soon as the cutting, or air layer or scion is metabolically healthy enough to produce flower buds. Usually less than 5 years for a cutting.

Malus sieboldiana - Toringo Crab apple, at the National Bonsai Collection, Washington DC. Note the beautiful sense of proportion, the fruit are in scale with the tree.
View attachment 291581

Here are two culinary size apples, note how out of scale the fruit is. Okay if you are going for shock value, but no sense of proportion.
View attachment 291579

View attachment 291580

I'm going to have to get cuttings from my crabapple tree because they are so beautiful and as you said proportionate. The Apple trees will take up a bit of space, but I think it would be so cool to have an apple bonsai with big fruit on it, you have to admit how cool it looks. Plus my county is named apple county, I live in between lots and lots of orchards, so It would be pretty ironic

 

[Warpig]

I'm going to have to get cuttings from my crabapple tree because they are so beautiful and as you said proportionate. The Apple trees will take up a bit of space, but I think it would be so cool to have an apple bonsai with big fruit on it, you have to admit how cool it looks. Plus my county is named apple county, I live in between lots and lots of orchards, so It would be pretty ironic

No reason not to grow both!

 

[B.uneasy]

Is this branch a good candidate? It's shaped as an F and connects to the thick branch on the bottom. Where would I cut it, and should i leave the buds and leaves on? Are there a good success rate?

 

[B.uneasy]

Also does this method actually work? Soaking the branches in water?

 

[Shibui]

Apples are very good at sprouting from older wood so cutting the trunk down should not be a problem. Most will usually also sucker from the roots.
Cuttings can root in water and it is good to watch it happen but I get better results with cuttings in pots of proper potting mix or propagating mix.
That F shaped branch could be interesting but will not give much advantage over a straight cutting that you can cut back after a year or so.

 

[B.uneasy]

Apples are very good at sprouting from older wood so cutting the trunk down should not be a problem. Most will usually also sucker from the roots.
Cuttings can root in water and it is good to watch it happen but I get better results with cuttings in pots of proper potting mix or propagating mix.
That F shaped branch could be interesting but will not give much advantage over a straight cutting that you can cut back after a year or so.

Can I use.tap water on them, or do I need to use purified bottled water? Could I put them in a mason Jar, and would I need to close the lid to keep things moist all around? do they need to be warm, or should I sit them in a cool place. Also, how far up the cutting should the water be?

 

[Shibui]

I don't know all the answers to those questions. We use collected rain water here so I don't have access to municipal water supply. I also understand much of the water supply over there is quite different to our generally neutral town water supplies.
I assume that if the water is fit for humans it is also fit for plants so tap water should be OK. Closing to keep moist will depend on the surrounding atmosphere. Not usually necessary for dormant cuttings like these but when leaves open they may need extra humidity if there are no roots yet.
Just warm would be best while the roots form. Too warm may start the leaves opening before there is roots to support them.
I'm not aware of any guidelines for depth of water. Water 1/3 - 1/2 of the stem should be OK.

Good luck with your apple cuttings

 

[AJL]

You will get more reliable and better rooting in normal cutting compost eg 50/50 peat/ grit mix. Also any cutting rooted in water may struggle to survive when transplanted into proper growing medium.

 

[AJL]

If you want something closer to an instant bonsai in stem size,try air layering instead once your crab apple comes into leaf, otherwise youre gonna be looking at lots of rooted sticks in pots for years!!!

 

[B.uneasy]

If you want something closer to an instant bonsai in stem size,try air layering instead once your crab apple comes into leaf, otherwise youre gonna be looking at lots of rooted sticks in pots for years!!!

I guess someday I will feel alot of accomplishing when my sticks are not sticks no mote!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If the crab apple is in your yard, on your own property, I would definitely consider air layering a branch, select a branch that is at least 2 to 3 inches in diameter. This would save you many years of growing cuttings. Pick a spot with some bends and twists to it. Don't air layer a dead arrow straight segment of the tree. Look for a point just below a brach, or where the branch has some interesting movement.

If you are going to root the cuttings in water, change the water frequently, every couple days, this will help. Also look into "willow water". It was discussed in a recent thread. Willow water can be used as a "natural rooting hormone".

 

[B.uneasy]

If the crab apple is in your yard, on your own property, I would definitely consider air layering a branch, select a branch that is at least 2 to 3 inches in diameter. This would save you many years of growing cuttings. Pick a spot with some bends and twists to it. Don't air layer a dead arrow straight segment of the tree. Look for a point just below a brach, or where the branch has some interesting movement.

If you are going to root the cuttings in water, change the water frequently, every couple days, this will help. Also look into "willow water". It was discussed in a recent thread. Willow water can be used as a "natural rooting hormone".

If I do take the cuttings, wouldn't ground growing them thicken the bad boys up?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Sure, but even ground growing takes time. Cuttings will take 2 to 6 months to root. During which time growth will be minimal. Then you need to let them run in the ground for 2 to 4 years to get some girth. THen chop back to just a few inches tall, to get back bud and movement into the trunks. You are looking at 5 to 10 years before a cutting can go into a bonsai pot. An air layer can go into a bonsai pot often in the same season. Although to be honest, an air layer can end up needed 5 years or more of work before it is ready for a bonsai pot.

So it is your choice. Either option will work.

 

[B.uneasy]

Is this branch two big to try and root in water? If its not how much of the foliage should I cut off?

 

[B.uneasy]

I think i may have come up with a brilliant idea. Tell me if you think this will work. Is the stem in enough water?