Generational Learning

[Bill S]

whatever information there is that isn't on the internet is only a matter of time. The ball is rolling.

WHat are you waiting for, Wikapedia can be written by anyone.

 

[Bill S]

Problem with this is you make it sound as if the ones learning online are not practicing and doing on their own.

ALone get you your approval, and maybe if you pat yourself on the back, a pat on the back. Did you do it correctly, did you get advice on how a small change in your finger gets the wire to twist around the branch without trying to wrap it around the branch, ooooo I wouldn't do that, whoa if you bend it that hard it will snap, don't cut the pink branch,etc,etc,etc.

By yourself, you get to decide if you are a master, we can see that from time to time right here at Bnut.

Poink, not saying this is you, just using your statement for my point.

 

[Bill S]

I would love to study with Ryan Neil. I don't know if I ever will but in the meantime I like to see whatever he has to say on the internet. His critiques are something we need more of.

Thats his bread and butter, and if I remember correctly, you are one that asks folks to do things like "hey, why don't you make a book, or video about that and post it up so we can use it", maybe not you per se, but we have seen this often, this is how they make a living, and they are being asked to put it online for free. How many of us work for free?

 

[Tona]

One problem with a lot of "basic" bonsai instructors is that they don't get into teaching the important aspects of how to hold or use a tool, how to hold and pre-bend the wire with your thumb and index finger as you whined it around a branch, how to properly bind a branch with raffia to do a major bend, how to properly anchor a guy wire, how to properly tie-down a tree in a pot, or even more complicated how to tie down a 4' tall Cal. juniper with a rotted base into a single hole bunjin pot. These are all things that someone like you is not likely to have learned on their own, or may have but not as effectively as someone else more experienced has discovered. I think you are actually wasting your time with some of your teachers because of your self taught experience but if its enjoyable keep doing it. You will get a lot more out of someone like John Wang or Ryan Neil as far as furthering your knowledge and abilities.

Well, maybe I will not get to where you are now or think you want to be Nate. I'm a lot older and don't have as much time.
I realize that you have bought a lot of good material in the few years you have been involved and spent a lot ($) working with Ryan, John and others. You have talent and passion. Your trees and skills show that.
I'm not sure my goals are the same as yours. It seems that your interests may be partially profit based as shown by your sales tables at shows and your growing grounds in the San Diego area. Perhaps you hope to move up in the Bonsai world someday. That is all fine and good if it is your goal.
My interest is personal. The appreciation of the art. I have been pretty happy with my Bonsai hobby. I did join the club and try to attend shows to learn, network and attain better material as well as for the social interaction. I'm on the board just so I can help out.
As far as to whether I can wire a tree as well as you: I don't know. It's not a contest for me.
I still peruse the internet for information, to look at trees, to read forums etc. Actually, I think you do too. Your here aren't you?
One thing that I see happening in our local Bonsai world is the "my instructor is the best instructor" attitude. Whoever one person goes to always seems to be the best. There is a hero worship mentality going on. There is also an attitude that older style bonsai instructors like mine (Roy) are not as good as the new guys. I believe that techniques do likely improve over time but traditional teachings should not be put down (as I have heard certain individuals do lately).
As you know I have been to John's and likely will continue when he is available. I do hope to learn more from him.
See ya at club officer installment luncheon,
Steve

 

[nathanbs]

Well, maybe I will not get to where you are now or think you want to be Nate. I'm a lot older and don't have as much time.
I realize that you have bought a lot of good material in the few years you have been involved and spent a lot ($) working with Ryan, John and others. You have talent and passion. Your trees and skills show that.
I'm not sure my goals are the same as yours. It seems that your interests may be partially profit based as shown by your sales tables at shows and your growing grounds in the San Diego area. Perhaps you hope to move up in the Bonsai world someday. That is all fine and good if it is your goal.
My interest is personal. The appreciation of the art. I have been pretty happy with my Bonsai hobby. I did join the club and try to attend shows to learn, network and attain better material as well as for the social interaction. I'm on the board just so I can help out.
As far as to whether I can wire a tree as well as you: I don't know. It's not a contest for me.
I still peruse the internet for information, to look at trees, to read forums etc. Actually, I think you do too. Your here aren't you?
One thing that I see happening in our local Bonsai world is the "my instructor is the best instructor" attitude. Whoever one person goes to always seems to be the best. There is a hero worship mentality going on. There is also an attitude that older style bonsai instructors like mine (Roy) are not as good as the new guys. I believe that techniques do likely improve over time but traditional teachings should not be put down (as I have heard certain individuals do lately).
As you know I have been to John's and likely will continue when he is available. I do hope to learn more from him.
See ya at club officer installment luncheon,
Steve

I re-read my own post and did not word it properly. I was trying to help explain your frustration or opinion that the teachers you have been going to just simply give you design opinions but arent teaching you much. And I think that is just their teaching style. Roy is a great teacher, he was my first but perhaps due to time restraints he tends to just focus at the task at hand and does not get into the how and why very often. Whereas John will teach you things that no one else will including Ryan. Ryan may teach you things that John wouldn't and that's why i try to learn from multiple sources. You are not a noob you've been doing this a long time and can possibly wire circles around me. I wasnt trying to criticize you in any way, shape or form, just encouraging you to keep studying with John and perhaps seek out Ryan and others. Keep going to Roy as I can attest first hand is a great weekly experience but dont limit yourself to just that. I dont go any longer strictly due to my own time constraints. As far as the money aspect of bonsai to me, I always hussle in everything I do, it helps pay for the expensive pots and trees that I yearn for. The trees growing in San Diego are to help supplement my dads income when we begin to phase out the avocado business.

 

[Stan Kengai]

whatever information there is that isn't on the internet is only a matter of time. The ball is rolling.

But one of the biggest things you can't get from the 'net are the subtleties and nuances, not just in design, but also in techniques. Sure one could become an average bonsai practitioner just by reading books and the internet. But it will take much longer than if one had a teacher, a mentor, or even a peer that they worked with often.

 

[BoneSci]

I'll add my $0.02 in hopes others may find it helpful. I have been pretty much doing bonsai on my own for about 10 years, reading a ton of magazines, the internet, and lurking on forums etc. I've taken a couple classes with Chase over the years and joined a club.

In my opinion, I suck. I barely have anything to show for it and have culled most of my trees the past year or two. This is due to 2 reasons:
1) a took a while to realize that the 'stick-in-a-pot' and many of my other trees would never be a decent bonsai. But I think this is where many of us start and that is OK.
2) life just gets in the way. For as much time as I spent reading, I was not able to spend as much time actually working on trees. Partially because I had a child along the way, was working and going to grad school, and partially because the sticks in pots don't need all that much work.

I wish I could have found a teacher or mentor that I could have regularly worked with, and still wish for this. It just never worked out. The west coast is too far away for me right now. Hopefully some of the East Coast guys doing apprenticeships in Japan will set up some type of intensive weekends like Boon has.

I feel a teacher would have greatly helped me overcome the two problems above because they would have 1) allowed me to see and work with much better trees and 2) force me to make the time for doing bonsai, not just reading about it late at night. I think this is a much overlooked factor - having a regular appointment or class to go to can greatly increase the excitement, motivation, dedication etc and this has many benefits that aren't often considered...not to mention doing instead of just reading is absolutely the best way to learn

Chris

 

[John Ruger]

Damn good post; bonsai's a discipline and I feel safe to say that most of us are either where you're at now, or have been there.

 

[aidan13]

Thats his bread and butter, and if I remember correctly, you are one that asks folks to do things like "hey, why don't you make a book, or video about that and post it up so we can use it", maybe not you per se, but we have seen this often, this is how they make a living, and they are being asked to put it online for free. How many of us work for free?

The thing is, many folks are more willing to just go it on their own rather than pay for instruction/instructional books or videos. If they have to pay for it, they'd rather just go without. In some ways it's similar to the current controversy with the recording industry and music pirating. If the service or product you are selling is no longer something people are willing to pay for, the ethics of the issue aside, you're out of luck. The options are to either provide that same service/product for free, and come up with some other way to monetize your services, (Netflix is a good example of this) or find a new new line of work! There is the third option of refusing to adapt and going down with your ship, but that's not the most fiscally sensible.

 

[Poink88]

ALone get you your approval, and maybe if you pat yourself on the back, a pat on the back. Did you do it correctly, did you get advice on how a small change in your finger gets the wire to twist around the branch without trying to wrap it around the branch, ooooo I wouldn't do that, whoa if you bend it that hard it will snap, don't cut the pink branch,etc,etc,etc.

By yourself, you get to decide if you are a master, we can see that from time to time right here at Bnut.

Poink, not saying this is you, just using your statement for my point.

I really appreciate your post.

Doing things myself (or even with an instructor), I know I will NEVER be a master nor do I have the illusion or aspiration to be one. I am a hobbyist, I enjoy doing what I am doing and sharing my adventures (& misadventures) too. I like pushing things...my plants and myself.

In a way, I do not sweat the little stuff in bonsai. I may wire wrong or hideously, break a branch, etc. Honestly, I haven't even consciously strived to wire "pretty." I am happy with my web of guy wires, sloppy wires, turnbuckles, and make shift benders. It doesn't bother me as long as the job gets done. I have Frankenstein trees and everyone might call me crazy but I like what I see (vision of the future). I do pat myself on the back sometimes, I hope nothing is wrong with that.

I do not preach/teach/force others to follow my ways. But want them to know that creation have different routes. It may not be the prettiest, most efficient, or best but trailblazing (though more difficult) is sometimes more fun than following the paved road.

What I do not like are;
- people saying you cannot do bonsai without going through live instructions.
- people who are close minded and dismissing things even if you show them proof.
- people who insist things be done only their way or what they believe.

Anyone who cannot understand what I am saying will never, no matter how I explain it so this will be my last post in this thread.

Thank you.

 

[johng]

I agree that information about bonsai is vastly more available now, then it was when I started playing with trees just over twenty years ago. The funny thing is that my bonsai buddy has been doing this for 40 years and I would venture to say that the information I had access to 20 years ago was vastly greater that what he had. I do think that is an advantage to folks coming to the hobby more recently but only a slim one.

Bonsai is not just theoretical...and that is all you can learn from the Internet. You have to be able to put the knowledge into practice with your hands....which is a skill that some might argue is lacking in the younger generation...I am not sure?

This "doing" also comes with a learning curve that can only be overcome by hands on experience... It is success in doing, more than the knowledge of, that propels one to the highest levels of personal satisfaction and community respect...if that is what you desire. I think this analogy works...one can know everything about the sport of basketball but doesn't infer any correlation to whether or not that person has the skills to play in the NBA.

Of course there are various learning styles, but when it comes to a craft such as bonsai, ultimately you have to do it. So, I don't think that part of the learning process has or will really change across generations. Finally, as many others have said, in my personal experience there is no substitute for hands on learning and guidance regardless of your level of participation in this hobby.
John

 

[lordy]

I feel that the internet makes it easily possible to give advice on a subject (bonsai practices) that one may really only have a very limited experience with. However limited that experience is, there still is enthusiasm on the part of the advice-giver, and that sometimes translates into perhaps ill-advised counseling. That is to say, even though the advice giver has all good intentions, they lack any real experience to adequately provide accurate and correct info. Many times, they simply regurgitate what they think they know, or have read, but what they dont realize is that life of a bonsai is more than just a year in the life of a collected shrub. This may be a real problem for who is asking the question, because without knowing it, they put into practice bad advice because someone who likes to post a lot may not really know what they are talking about, but justify it by saying "this is just my humble opinion" or "this is just my experience". I think perhaps that advise should simply be withheld until the giver is SURE of what they speak, based on a long-enough time span to back up what they say. And as many of us know, a lot can change in a tree in several years.

 

[lordy]

Bonsai is not just theoretical...and that is all you can learn from the Internet. You have to be able to put the knowledge into practice with your hands....which is a skill that some might argue is lacking in the younger generation...I am not sure?

This "doing" also comes with a learning curve that can only be overcome by hands on experience... It is success in doing, more than the knowledge of, that propels one to the highest levels of personal satisfaction and community respect...if that is what you desire. I think this analogy works...one can know everything about the sport of basketball but doesn't infer any correlation to whether or not that person has the skills to play in the NBA.

Of course there are various learning styles, but when it comes to a craft such as bonsai, ultimately you have to do it. So, I don't think that part of the learning process has or will really change across generations. Finally, as many others have said, in my personal experience there is no substitute for hands on learning and guidance regardless of your level of participation in this hobby.
John

Applause from me.

 

[Waldo Street Pottery]

I am entering my 3rd growing season of bonsai and have never had any training. I'm happy with my progress and have learned from mistakes, the internet, books and advice from others, in that order. I will attend my first worksop this month with Cathy Shaner and I'm excited to participate in a social setting involving bonsai. I know that I learn by visiting my local bonsai nurserys just by seeing other trees, I'm sure the tutorial will help me progress even further. Thanks to all of you who contribute to these pages, I've learned and for that I am grateful.

 

[Dav4]

I am entering my 3rd growing season of bonsai and have never had any training. I'm happy with my progress and have learned from mistakes, the internet, books and advice from others, in that order. I will attend my first worksop this month with Cathy Shaner and I'm excited to participate in a social setting involving bonsai. I know that I learn by visiting my local bonsai nurserys just by seeing other trees, I'm sure the tutorial will help me progress even further. Thanks to all of you who contribute to these pages, I've learned and for that I am grateful.

So you decided to become a member of the Atlanta Bonsai Society? I'll be there for the Sunday meeting (I bring the cookies, chips and soda). If you get to the Sunday meeting, make sure bring a tree for Kathy to critique.

 

[Waldo Street Pottery]

So you decided to become a member of the Atlanta Bonsai Society? I'll be there for the Sunday meeting (I bring the cookies, chips and soda). If you get to the Sunday meeting, make sure bring a tree for Kathy to critique.

Indeed, thanks for your help and motivation! It may be the only meeting I attend the whole year due to work schedule, but that's better than none at all. I plan to see you there.

 

[Anthony]

Dario,

on my side, you learn because you want to. Experiment and learn. There are no instructors down here in Bonsai or Penjing, but then this also a hobby.

If one is secretly setting out to win something or show off, then there will be some intensity towards a hands on situation [ a teacher most likely.]

Even if you just grew a tamarind seedling for over 20 years in suffcient soil, it would acquire personality.

I think folks should be honest with their objectives, hobby or fame or sales or other.
Good Evening.
Anthony

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Here's what we did in the workshop today...

 

[catfish chapstick]

Hi catfish.. Are you sure about this..lol.. In another thread, it seemed like you were leaning well towards penjing and looser interpretations of tree styling. Ryan is practically %100 Japanese aesthetic training and styling.. However, you could study and learn the techniques, then branch out.

Rob

Ryan has good design sense and tremendous horticultural knowledge; he offers great insight and consideration. You're right though, with branch placement I'd probably be a lot more haphazard unless he convinced me otherwise.

 

[catfish chapstick]

Thats his bread and butter, and if I remember correctly, you are one that asks folks to do things like "hey, why don't you make a book, or video about that and post it up so we can use it", maybe not you per se, but we have seen this often, this is how they make a living, and they are being asked to put it online for free. How many of us work for free?

Internet exposure is one way people who are good get famous.