Getting my second tree as a seedling, help me get setup for success?

[Ranitomeya]

Hello all, please forgive me for the rambling. I'm not quite sure what info is most important, so I may share too much.

I've long been interested in bonsai, and last year I picked up a 5ish y/o Fukien Tea that I've successfully managed to not kill so far.

I've always been interested in cherry trees, and after a lot of looking around online and in person I gave up on tracking one down and opted to purchase a Prunus 'Okame' seedling from a vendor online. In my research I'm finding some conflicting information on whether grafts or seed/lings are better for cherries, and I'm also not finding much helpful information as far as what steps I should take with a seedling. Some sites say to start pot training right away, others reccomend a year or two in a gallon pot. I'm also unsure at what point a seedling becomes "pre-bonsai" (or what that actually means, and how to reach that stage), and when I should actually begin pruning.

It'll be a week or two before I receive the plant, but it's around a year old and a foot tall. I'm on the cusp of zone 5b/6a, so went with the 'Okame' because I heard they're supposed to be a little more frost tolerant.

Any insights, tips, or words of advice would be highly appreciated.

 

[DanaWhicker]

It's good that your provided your USDA zone.

Tips - Put your location and USDA zone in your profile. You need more trees. Lots more trees.

 

[Paradox]

We could give you better advice if we could see a picture of said seedling. There is no rush if its a seedling, post some pics when you can

 

[Ranitomeya]

It's good that your provided your USDA zone.

Tips - Put your location and USDA zone in your profile. You need more trees. Lots more trees.

Lol trust me, I have the itch. I'm trying not to jump in too deep too fast. I work a fair bit, and have a lot of frogs that require my time. I'm the sort that very much wants to get a feel for a routine before trying to add more stuff in. I do have my eyes out for an established prunus or Japanese Maple if I can find one in my budget. I'll be updating my profile momentarily, thanks for the heads up!

We could give you better advice if we could see a picture of said seedling. There is no rush if its a seedling, post some pics when you can

Yeah it's gonna be a moment until I actually receive the seedling, the pics I have access to are just representative of what the individual is selling. That being said, what would you be looking for in said pictures to better tailor advice? Does existing growth/vigor play a role in whether it should go into a bigger pot for awhile?

 

[Paradox]

Lol trust me, I have the itch. I'm trying not to jump in too deep too fast. I work a fair bit, and have a lot of frogs that require my time. I'm the sort that very much wants to get a feel for a routine before trying to add more stuff in. I do have my eyes out for an established prunus or Japanese Maple if I can find one in my budget. I'll be updating my profile momentarily, thanks for the heads up!


Yeah it's gonna be a moment until I actually receive the seedling, the pics I have access to are just representative of what the individual is selling. That being said, what would you be looking for in said pictures to better tailor advice? Does existing growth/vigor play a role in whether it should go into a bigger pot for awhile?

Its always best to have as much information as possible before giving advice. A picture is worth 1000 words as they say. We can get an idea of its size, how its potted (if its potted). It may not even need a repot this year but cant tell til we see it. Is it leafed out yet? If so, its too late to repot this year.

Vigor definitely plays a role. Messing with a weak tree can send it over the edge.

 

[19Mateo83]

Hello all, please forgive me for the rambling. I'm not quite sure what info is most important, so I may share too much.

I've long been interested in bonsai, and last year I picked up a 5ish y/o Fukien Tea that I've successfully managed to not kill so far.

I've always been interested in cherry trees, and after a lot of looking around online and in person I gave up on tracking one down and opted to purchase a Prunus 'Okame' seedling from a vendor online. In my research I'm finding some conflicting information on whether grafts or seed/lings are better for cherries, and I'm also not finding much helpful information as far as what steps I should take with a seedling. Some sites say to start pot training right away, others reccomend a year or two in a gallon pot. I'm also unsure at what point a seedling becomes "pre-bonsai" (or what that actually means, and how to reach that stage), and when I should actually begin pruning.

It'll be a week or two before I receive the plant, but it's around a year old and a foot tall. I'm on the cusp of zone 5b/6a, so went with the 'Okame' because I heard they're supposed to be a little more frost tolerant.

Any insights, tips, or words of advice would be highly appreciated.

I can’t believe no one has welcomed you yet. @sorce and @HorseloverFat must be slipping

Welcome to the enchanted woods. Gather round the campfire as the woodland elves crack open a fresh cask of ale and regale you with tales from the ancient groves!

Welcome to crazy!

 

[Shibui]

I've always been interested in cherry trees, and after a lot of looking around online and in person I gave up on tracking one down and opted to purchase a Prunus 'Okame' seedling from a vendor online. In my research I'm finding some conflicting information on whether grafts or seed/lings are better for cherries, and I'm also not finding much helpful information as far as what steps I should take with a seedling. Some sites say to start pot training right away, others reccomend a year or two in a gallon pot. I'm also unsure at what point a seedling becomes "pre-bonsai" (or what that actually means, and how to reach that stage), and when I should actually begin pruning.

Grafts are often shunned by bonsai growers as sometimes the graft stands out on the trunk and looks odd so many will only grow cuttings or seedlings but if the graft is neat and does not swell there's no problem with a grafted tree as bonsai.
There are lots of different opinions on how to grow a seedling for bonsai. Probably most will eventually arrive at a reasonable bonsai so just find a recommendation you like the sound of and follow that. Changing tack part way through can sometimes cause problems so best to stick with one method for at least a few years.
Cherries have an unfortunate habit of getting a number of pests and diseases, especially from pruning so take care with cleanliness and disease control whenever you work with your cherry.
There's no real definition of seedling, pre bonsai and bonsai. It all depends on your standards and expectations.

Young trees grow more rapidly if they are not pruned too much. Some growers let a tree grow for several years then chop the trunk down to a stump and allow a new leader to grow as replacement trunk. That's quicker but leaves large scars that may take ages to heal. Cherry particularly prone to disease after pruning so may not be the best way to develop yours.
Regular pruning will slow growth rates but smaller cuts heal faster and trunk bends and taper will usually be better For cherry in particular I think the latter strategy would be better. there's no real recommendation on how often 'regular' pruning will be, especially as growth rates will vary with location, soil type and care. You'll need to make your own decisions as to how often.
Larger pots allow more root run and more top growth. Ground growing allows even more growth but can sometimes also give coarse, ugly results. Smaller pots slow growth but can also give a far better quality bonsai if you are willing to wait all those years.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have some well grafted cherries that are better than seedlings because the cultivar itself doesn't grow well on its own roots.
But well done grafts are rare.

What I've found for prunus species is that they do better if they're allowed to grow fully when they're young. If you start pruning right away, they'll weaken and die slow. It took 3 years for my first cherry to die, but it never leafed out in those three years. No need to get it into bonsai soil ASAP, because they seem to do very well in regular potting soil as long as they're in a good container. Trunk building is your priority I believe: get some movement and a solid base. You can always cut them back to a bare trunk and start over. They'll pop new branches pretty easily.

Keep in mind that their branches don't flex very well and they tend to snap instead of breaking. If you see the outside of a bend crack a little, bending it a couple degrees further could mean total failure by snapping it in half. So stop in time and don't use too much force. Actually, don't use force at all. Maybe take three or four days to bend a branch instead. It's safer that way.

 

[Ranitomeya]

Apologies for the delayed response I've had a fairly busy week. @19Mateo83 thank you for the warm welcome! It's good to know that crazy is the norm in these parts lol.

@Shibui that is some wonderful information you shared. Still no pictures but I I reached out to the vendor for some information (tree will be arriving next week). He clarified that the "seedling" was taken as a cutting from a 10 y/o tree, and has been rooting for closer to 2 years than 1. His suggestion was to decide if I want to focus on the trunk or nebari 1st, and plant in a 3gal for trunk or a training pot for nebari. It'll be coming bare root, so I'll have to pick up a pot either way. My guts leaning towards getting 1 of each so that when the plant comes in I can decide and go from there.

@Wires_Guy_wires thank you for the tips re: wiring and soil. I'd heard their branches are brittle, but I'll be sure to go slow with wiring and stretch it out. Potting soil is in line with the vendor's reccomendation for focusing on trunk growth, but if you think that's what I should focus on initially I'll heavily take that into consideration.

Thank you everyone for your input! I'll be sure to update this thread with pics once it comes in.

 

[Ranitomeya]

Welp. The Okame arrived on Saturday afternoon, and it was essentially a stick with a few leaves. Taking some of the advice here, I set it up in a "trade gallon", a spritz of pesticide for fruiting trees, and endeavored to let the plant grow as it will and do a post this weekend when I'd be able to get a decent shot in the daylight. Some compost was added to the soil, and per advice for outdoor trees from @Colorado I added a layer of sphagnum as top dressing.

I've been checking on the tree in the mornings before work, but it's been pretty chilly and the plants in a deep pot so it hasn't needed to be watered yet. A package of humidity trays arrived while I was at work today, so I went to set those up a bit ago and... it looks like the Okame might not be doing too hot. This morning the leaves were fine, but now they're wilted and drooping.

Gonna attach some pics so you can see the damage, and hopefully someone can tell me what I did wrong here. I'll also share what I'm hoping to achieve with this tree, so that theoretically you kind folks can try to steer me in the right direction.



See? A twig with some very sad leaves. Heres a close up of the leaves. They look crispy, but feel a little slimy in the center.


Immediate goal is to try and stabilize the tree and get a re-start on the spring growth. I was hoping to snip the singular lead I had in the near future to get some branches going, but my gut is saying thats probably a bad idea at the present moment in time. Focusing on trunk development, but I did use a flat river rock under the trees trunk to try and encourage some nebari development in the meantime.

Down the road, I can see this tree being a kinda informal upright-broom or having a nice windswept look. Initially I was wanting to go for a kinda classic looking upright, but the bend in the trunk here I think would be fun to play up as the tree develops. I have no clue what I'm doing though, so please share your thoughts and tell me why either of those is a bad idea. I'm kinda on the fence either way, and I'm not sure what curating either style would ultimately entail.

Edit: oh! In case it's worth mentioning, the last 2 days have been windy and colder with drops into the 20s at night? I don't think that's the culprit though.

 

[Shibui]

Wind can dry out tender new leaves, especially if the tree has just been potted so fewer roots working to replace lost moisture. Cold can also dehydrate so it is possible the cold and wind is the cause.
Try spraying the leaves with water to see if it perks up. Protection from dry wind could help if that's the cause.

After repotting when the tree already has leaves they'll sometimes with and even drop leaves but that's just to conserve moisture and most will bud up and grow again in a few weeks.

Fingers crossed for this one.

 

[Ranitomeya]

Wind can dry out tender new leaves, especially if the tree has just been potted so fewer roots working to replace lost moisture. Cold can also dehydrate so it is possible the cold and wind is the cause.
Try spraying the leaves with water to see if it perks up. Protection from dry wind could help if that's the cause.

After repotting when the tree already has leaves they'll sometimes with and even drop leaves but that's just to conserve moisture and most will bud up and grow again in a few weeks.

Fingers crossed for this one.

Oh well then I suppose cold/wind is the likely culprit. Should the sphagnum layer be removed? Seems like it'd just cause the cold to be trapped inside the pot and against the base of the trunk for now? I'll be sure to give the leaves a good mist in the morning.

I am at a loss for ideas what to do about the wind though. The patio has that metal railing, so there's plenty of space for air to come rushing through on 3 of the sides. The pot is too large to try and butt up against the AC unit... a cursory google says I should go for "partial cover". Definitely something to sleep on, no clue why I'm even up this late.

 

[ShadyStump]

I am at a loss for ideas what to do about the wind though.

Cardboard box.
Slip the whole pot in to one deep enough to offer a wind break, maybe cut one side down enough for the sun to shine in better if you have to. You can pack it full of mulch or whatnot to help insulate the tree and pot as well.
Get a big enough box, some clear plastic and duct tape, and you can put a clear cover over the top and side to make a little coldframe.

BTW, what end of the state are you on? Just curious if I have a bonsai neighbor.

 

[Ranitomeya]

Cardboard box.
Slip the whole pot in to one deep enough to offer a wind break, maybe cut one side down enough for the sun to shine in better if you have to. You can pack it full of mulch or whatnot to help insulate the tree and pot as well.
Get a big enough box, some clear plastic and duct tape, and you can put a clear cover over the top and side to make a little coldframe.

BTW, what end of the state are you on? Just curious if I have a bonsai neighbor.

Would a clear sterlite tote work? I have a few of those lying around, maybe 1 or 2 big enough to house the pot. Also, for the mulch and such should I do that year round or save that for closer to winter?

I'm up towards Denver, so if you're in the southern portion I doubt we're too close. Definitely interested to hear about what other Coloradans have had success with though if you ever want to drop a line.

 

[ShadyStump]

Would a clear sterlite tote work? I have a few of those lying around, maybe 1 or 2 big enough to house the pot. Also, for the mulch and such should I do that year round or save that for closer to winter?

I'm up towards Denver, so if you're in the southern portion I doubt we're too close. Definitely interested to hear about what other Coloradans have had success with though if you ever want to drop a line.

A clear tote would work great actually. You might have to worry about proper ventilation- even trees have to breath- but you have options there. It'll also help hold in humidity, which should help the tree recover.
The mulch I was thinking now just to help keep a stable environment. The tree is obviously struggling with a big change, so anything might help. It's something we often do in winter too, but your tree likely came from a greenhouse where it's been relatively warm and cozy, then suddenly into the cold and windy.

And don't ask me about success. I can totally tell you how trees die, though.
Been at this a couple years on a nil budget in a wacky situation. I'm just now at a point in my life where I can take it seriously enough to actually say I'm doing bonsai.
I have learned allot in that time, though, just lacked the wherewithal to really put it into practice.