Getting permission on private land?

[mattspinniken]

I have a really good spot scoped out for some nice Larch. I finally found the owners name and number and called. The conversation went something like this:

me: "Hi, I am interested in collecting a few small trees from your property"

owner: "huh?''

me: " have you heard of bonsai?"

owner: "no"

me: " well blah blah blah"

owner:'' am I sitting on a gold mine?"

Anyway the converstation left both of us pretty confused. And I could tell the person thought she was having a conversation with a crazy person. lol!

Any tips on getting permission?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Probably needed to keep talking a little longer...show him the one you like, explain what you're planning to do...and in 20 years it might be worth $50.. Offer to dig one up for him too...

If it's a landscape, I offer to replace whatever I dig with something else, and suggest a knockout rose or something bright and shiny.

 

[fourteener]

2 strikes against you... 1. people don't know what bonsai is. 2. People don't want to think a resource was taken from them. I show people pictures of my work. I explain as Brian did, their value is minimal, especially at the moment of gathering them. It's like asking for raw clay from someone, not worth anything really until someone does all the work(no need to explain all of that, they are already lost at the word bonsai.)

Always offer something. I never want something for nothing, they don't want to feel like someone came and stole gold off of their property.

 

[Tieball]

Suggestion.

Lower your knowledge and experience when engaged for discussion. You'll avoid the gold mine thinking. Think like this.....You've been reading about bonsai trees. You'd like to start some Larch trees. The research said that Larch was a good tree to work on. The Larch is also a good native tree in the area so it does well in "our" climate (you live here too). I don't have Larches near to me though. I noticed you have Larches. And....I have no idea how you know this person has Larch trees. Don't indicate that you're sneaking around their property on purpose....you might actually say you were wandering around looking at trees after your research and got a little lost in the woods. Everything you said is true....it does not say that you're highly experienced and know that the trees you want are valuable ($$$). It says you want to learn something and you live near the area. Owners sometimes like to go out and see what you're talking about and wanting to dig up. Sometimes they don't if where you're digging is well away from their home. But they want to know you'll respect their property. Assure them that you will follow through and level the dig site so no one falls in a hole. Return the land so it looks wooded and natural. Let the person know it will just be you digging and offer to check in at the house before you start (the person will likely say that's not necessary). You should let them know if you will park your car near their property in case they see a parked vehicle....so they know it is you. Try not to park in their driveway near the house so they can to closely observe your take. The owner will check on your dig leveling of the soil later on...do a good job...make to area hard to find....and you'll be welcomed back again if you're looking for more. It demonstrates a good respect for the owner....and you might see them sometime in the future and they helped get you started with Larch trees.

Never call on the phone. Always stop by in person. People are rightly concerned about granting rights over the phone. I wouldn't give any rights myself. Go to their door. Introduce yourself. Remember though....they can always say no. It is their right. Getting a no....you can last effort offer to plant a pine seeding in place of the tree removed. It's worth a try. Do plant a seedling if they say okay. Follow through.

Now....undoing what you've done. Stop calling on the phone. Stop at the house. Step back and talk like I mentioned. Apologize for the phone call....say you were just excited to start learning. But you realized you should have stopped by rather than called on the phone. They should know who they are talking to. This should get you back to level ground again so you can start a fresh discussion.

 

[crust]

My experience is the same--the minute you conjure up visions of mystical rare preciousness the average Joe Americans eyes turn into dollars signs. Swamp larch collecting is grueling unaesthetic work that, at best, produces rough stock and rarely anything substantive--its not like one is prying gems off of a mountain top.

Here is my advice--don't mention bonzo, it just confuses people, have mercy on them and instead have a selection of pre-conjured stories that seems innocuous--be creative. One has to come to terms with puritan morality at this point. Lets use the basis of intent, A) you are being righteous and square asking for permission to gather a few trees and in this it is your only obligation to be purely honest and now God and Mary have given you the nod and your mother sighs relief somewhere--accept this--so now comes the fun part, B): Bonzo is a artistic endeavor, kind of like writing a novel, so entering the land of fiction and exaggeration is totally OK, it is actually a poetic device that brings you closer and more benevolently toward the innocent observer and land owner. First, down play the whole thing: "just lookin fer some ratty old tamarack--best place to gettum this time of year is a swamp." Mention your local, "I live round here and gita few round these parts when I have a chance", mention your a plant guy but in a non-business way, "studied plants in school some", then , if pressed, say like, "plantin my own real swamp in my spare time--want to use local trees" or get technical and say, "studying or nitrogen deprived trees since I was in school, its a hobby of mine--the peat makes the PH high and makes um grow slow, looking for a few maimed ones to grow--some co-exist with bores you know, very interestin". I have used the, "I study local dwarfed swamp trees as a hobby" several times. If anybody ever mentions value I would laugh a large spittle ridden laugh in their face. These are runty,maimed and stunted trees of no timber value gently taken from swamps that make up endless tracks throughout the state.

And remind your self, without a doubt bonzo is not a profitable endeavor or business of any kind--slogging through swamps is hard work, potting up trees is expensive and for the 99.9% of us bonzo is a life and money sucking compulsion and we are just trying to find a few good trees or at worst help curb expenses by selling some stock.

 

[mattspinniken]

Thanks guys a lot of good tips. Especially the fact that I need to go in person. She seemed open to the idea but hesitant so I think I can correct things this fall. Also I offered to pay her. I have a landscape business so finding landscape trees and asking permission has been much easier. These trees are in a wild area far from the person's home and she owns the land so the conversation was a bit akward. Originally I mentioned that she had some very interesting pitch plants that I was interested in as well, I regret saying that at all as it just confused things even more. Bonsai has made me seem like a nut bag. haha!

My new plan is to stop by, offer to fill in the holes, bring seedlings, offer some cash, and explain that these trees only become valuable after working on them for many years and watering daily. Also going to offer to collect her one, i liked that idea too. If all goes well I should be able to post a few nice ones this fall.

 

[mattspinniken]

slogging through swamps is hard work, potting up trees is expensive and for the 99.9% of us bonzo is a life and money sucking compulsion and we are just trying to find a few good trees or at worst help curb expenses by selling some stock

Thanks for the tips Crust, slogging through swamps / bogs is really exciting for me. I keep thinking im going to find the most beautiful "smashoid" around every corner. Also I have no interest in collecting to sell. I'm looking for trees to collect and train until I am an old geezer.

 

[crust]

Oh yes excitement of the holy grail. Most are just boners--some are cool boners. Here is a smashiod swamp-collected by one of the Ogres students not long ago. It has evolved into coolness.

 

[Tieball]

Oh yes excitement of the holy grail. Most are just boners--some are cool boners. Here is a smashiod swamp-collected by one of the Ogres students not long ago. It has evolved into coolness.View attachment 106565 View attachment 106566

Nice tree!

 

[mattspinniken]

saweet! It looks like the larch on the left in the Nursery can is another beauty.

 

[Gunstock]

Introduce self as an exotic tree amateur and that closes the gold mine scenario. Unless they wonder how you know what's on the property and ask how many are you interested in.
If you're there for more than a day, offer to explain why and bargain with the resources they already have as payback. When you start educating them, who would object to a reasonable offer or trade?
Bonsai is a hobby not associated with goldmines.
If I had to reach down deep in my pocket though I'd look elsewhere.

 

[Tieball]

If you are not buying as a landscape worker I would not even mention that business. Landscapers get trees and charge people lots of money to plant them in their landscape. Keep it simple. Don't exaggerate the hobby.

 

[mattspinniken]

Just wanted to update this and say that the tip to go over in person worked. Thankfully she is really nice and has given me permission. She also wants me to collect her one, not sure how her after care will go but im not going to tell her no. Anyways, thanks for the tips.

 

[Waltron]

nice, actually there is some good information written about this tactic. acquiring deer hunting permission is even more difficult most of the time, not sure if you are a hunter not, but precision bow hunting by Eberhart has a whole chapter about acquiring permission on private land. he has a template letter he sends out beforehand which is really professional and lets them know you intend to meet in person, give a date and time you will come knocking in the mailed letter, and they will either call to tell you not to come or they will be expecting you. send a resume, and photos. if you are into deer hunting at all that book is gold. Nick Lenz book on collecting from the wild also has a few pages dedicated to the topic.. his advice is a little more discrete, as most people think they are sitting on bonsai gold when approached.

 

[Waltron]

lol crust you are good.

 

[Vin]

Oh yes excitement of the holy grail. Most are just boners--some are cool boners. Here is a smashiod swamp-collected by one of the Ogres students not long ago. It has evolved into coolness.View attachment 106565 View attachment 106566

I don't usually comment on another man's "boner" but in this case I'll make an exception. That is one nice boner you have there..

 

[Guy Vitale]

I had a very similar expieriance with a butchered piece of 'Urbanadori' there was a miedium Yew that had been hacked back down to nothing, but I saw some great carving potential and enough growth on it to think it was worth the try. After driving past this thing for a couple weeks, I finally got the nerve to ask the people if I could dig it out and replace it with a larger Yew, keep in mind, this thing was a stump. I explained what my intentions were and they just looked at me as if I were a crazy person (maybe I am). They said they would just leave it there and grow it out, two years later it's just another boring landscape yew, oh well.

 

[Giga]

I have gotten permission a few times in peoples yards. I just keep it simple like @Brian Van Fleet said. First I downplay what they have and say - I dive by here and am a amateur botanist(people know this word) and would like to replace the tree in question with something bright and shiny(give options you choose like 5$ crabapple from lowes). If they ask I tell them I'll restore the tree and bring it back to health. Talk dumb but respectful and simple words and shiny gifts. One I even mulched around the tree for them and they asked if there where any other I wanted to take.

like this one I got from a walk with the family

 

[Waltron]

there is a this dope ass pine I really really want, its right out front of a white castle in a shady part of the city. I should search my phone for photo of it.. bonsai in the hood.

 

[mattspinniken]

there is a this dope ass pine I really really want, its right out front of a white castle in a shady part of the city. I should search my phone for photo of it.. bonsai in the hood.

Go see if you can get permission and let us know how it goes. If anything, the tree would have a good story behind it. Worst they can do is call the cops on you .