Getting started with a JWP and JBP?

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Hi,
I know these are just saplings, but is it ok it the JBP is that tall? I think its like... really tall. I think I want to make it a formal upright. But someone said its a little late on its candle development? I don't know everything about these tree's, so I ordered the mastering JBP and JWP book on amazon. Which should be coming today. Its by Bonsai masters today I think.
And I think I have the desire to make this JWP an informal upright form, with just a slight curve, so it looks like a formal upright but it has some movement (sorry, I don't know how to describe it. I really love this look on JWP.
But for now, I want to field grow these. I think I might field grow them in a larger terra cotta pot next spring. Any tips for field growing these or any other advice is appreciated.
I contacted the seller, adamsbonsai, he said the black pine is a mikawa variety and he obtains the seed from japan. the white pine, he just said its a pinus parviflora (and he gets the seed from japan I think). He also said his stock is disease resistant and insect resistant as well. I also have akadama, pumice, and peat moss. I will switch to hyuga pumice in later years.
Sorry, Im trying to get on the right foot here.
Thanks!
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for pics, Im talking about the trees in "pines unhealthy?"
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
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Help us help you, and let's focus the discussion some:
1. What is the "finished" image of what you are trying to accomplish?
2. Are you determined to do it with the small material you're working with?
3. Do you have the land to actually plant something in the ground, or are you relegated to pots?
4. Do you have the knowledge and understanding of basic principles in order to grow and train a pine?
 

jeanluc83

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Read the links posted in your previous thread. That will be enough to keep you busy for a while.

Here is good overview of pine development: Care of Japanese Black Pine

I also recommend getting more trees. I got 20 bare root seedlings this spring and lost 2 of them fairly quickly. I pretty sure it was the stress of being bare rooted and shipped across the country. If I had had only two trees I would have none now. I anticipate losing more during development. At this point in development there is not much to do but watch them grow.
 
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Hi,
I might buy deciduous tree's to keep me busy while they grow.
Answers to your questions:
1. For the JWP, I'm heading for an informal upright form. For The JBP, a formal upright.
2.No, I'm letting them grow. I want like 3" trunks or larger. I am determined to keep these until the day I die, then pass them down. Bonsai is what I want to do as a profession. I've always had a love for plants since I was born.
3. Yes I do, but I live in utah, zone 6. Protection in winter would be necessary?
4. Well, I've been watching this 3 part video on youtube all about pines. Its an 80's video. I also will be reading this pine book. All I know is how to keep them alive.
Thank you guys,
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bonsairxmd

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I personally would start with something cheap and deciduous or maybe a juniper before diving right into pines from experience myself....especially JWP.


If you don't mind me asking how old are you? Are you still in school of some sort? Wondering the time and resources you have to devote diving in deep right now. (and cartoons is listed as an interest on your profile :) )
 
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I have experience with junipers, and many other deciduous tree's.
I just think I want to challenge myself, and I have a deep love for pines.
Thanks,
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Brian Van Fleet

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I'll try to help, but with all due respect, your level of commitment here will determine mine.


Answers to your questions:
1. For the JWP, I'm heading for an informal upright form. For The JBP, a formal upright.
I specifically asked about a finished "image" for a reason; particularly the informal upright. If you can share a picture of your vision, we can help you get there with your tree.

2.No, I'm letting them grow. I want like 3" trunks or larger. I am determined to keep these until the day I die, then pass them down. Bonsai is what I want to do as a profession. I've always had a love for plants since I was born.
Great. Here are a couple threads to read about growing big trunks...do this and you will get big trunks.
White Pine
Black Pine
Eric posts here to, and has good pines...check out the link provided above by Jeanluc83.
As for making bonsai a profession...I assume you're young. When I was young I was going to be a rock star. I was a good drummer, even did it professionally, but never to a level that paid the bills. Bonsai has an even smaller audience. I wish you all the luck in the world, but you would need to start working with a pro now if you really want to make a run at it professionally. I know several bonsai pros who have said the only way to make a million bucks in bonsai is to start with 2 million bucks.


3. Yes I do, but I live in utah, zone 6. Protection in winter would be necessary?
Research and answer this for yourself. If you can grow them in the ground, it will accelerate their development.

4. Well, I've been watching this 3 part video on youtube all about pines. Its an 80's video. I also will be reading this pine book. All I know is how to keep them alive.
Keep reading and studying. We all kill trees...the more we work with, the more we kill until we level off. Count on that taking 10 years if you're studying with some dedication.
 
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Hi brian,
I do have a mentor, he is a professional and a landscaper.
So I learn from him. He is good. I would like to do landscaping.
As of the pines,
I need to research a lot it seems.
Looks like I will read until my eyes bleed ;)
thanks!
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
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JBP may not be hardy in Utah. It naturally grows in southern Japan.

I would suggest growing in colanders. You can still build trunk.

If the book you are referring to is the "Pines" book sold by Stone Lantern, let me prepare you: The information as it's presented in that book is confusing to many. What it is: Reprints of several magazine articles written by many different authors. Each author is successful doing things their way, but what is presented are only parts of each author's full technique. So, there are conflicting messages in this book. Also note that many of the articles are reprinted and translated from Japanese. Some translators are more skillful than others, and some may not have a knowledge of basic bonsai techniques, so translation errors are common.

All that said, it's not a good beginner book for pine novices. I wish that it were. There's lots of good stuff in there, but it would be easy for someone new to pines to get all mixed up.

There is an article in there about how to start young pines in colanders. If you would just follow that one methodology, I think you'd do ok. For more on that methodology, search thru the posts on Jonas' blog, www.bonsaitonight.com. He's been doing it that way for several years, and you can go back and see what he's been doing and follow the followups.

Finally, it really is easier to start with some material that's too big, and cut it back rather than growing it up from scratch. You CAN grow up from scratch, but really, even though it LOOKS like it's easy to do, the decisions you make when the tree is very young are very important. And if you don't have any experience, you don't know what to do.

So, my advice is to get some bigger trees to work on, get some experience, THEN start back with the little trees to grow them out. Sure, play with the ones you have, just know that 5 years from now, you'll say to yourself, "gee... I wish I knew..."

I will say this: If your goal is to have a formal upright JBP, the best way IS to grow it from a little tree!

Good luck!
 
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Hi adair,
Well, I like to challenge myself.
On my way to train these, I think I could ask for help from my mentor.
Thanks! I will check out the blog.
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bonsairxmd

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Your mentor is a landscaper or bonsai artist? Big difference. I used to want to be an astronaut. Didn't happen. lol :) I'm kidding though. Brian and Adair have given you great advice as always. I just keep reading the same questions on different threads and am trying to get a read on you....maybe I'm bored today :)

PM sent
 
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Yeah, I should stop asking questions that have been answered.
What do you think of zuisho pines?
Thank you guys!
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Adair M

Pinus Envy
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Zuisho pines are a cultivar of JWP. If JWP do well in your area, zuisho should, too.

They do have the advantage that they can be grown from cuttings. So, they don't have to be grafted. They air layer easier than most other pines, too.

It takes a while for them to "trunk up". And they are single flush pines.

Is your mentor a guy named, "Dan"?
 
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No, it's not dan.
I got the book. It actually gave me more ideas on how to style my trees. The colander pot section makes sense.
Thanks!
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Hi,
So, I now have questions again. I decided to not make a new thread, so hopefully someone will get this.
How would I get sacrifice branches on my JBP if it's all trunk with a big ball of needles? I think for the JBP I want to head for an informal upright. I have a picture I found, but I can't post it yet. It's from bonsai today issue 90 and is an award winner at a japanese contest.
As of the white pine, I think I might make it a formal upright.
Thanks!
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Dirty Nails

Shohin
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Dude you are so far away from style/form/sacrafice branches. Your little guys are a lifetime away from being what you see in the books. Literally a lifetime. But don't let that stop you because your trees will never live that long.

I just dont see how someone who has a mentor that is a bonai pro and has lots of experience with junipers and deciduous trees can get so dinked up about these 2 "pines".

Someone had to say it....
 

bonsairxmd

Shohin
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How about buying a 1 gallon shimpaku and/or trident maple from Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks and starting there. Less than $40 each with shipping and something to work with. That's what I did at a young age after the mistake of buying sticks in pots from some 'bonsai' retailers.
 
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Ok,
You have your point. I'm going to field grow the pines. I am starting to realize that there is literally nothing else I can do for probably maybe 10 years.
I'm going to move on to my favorite deciduous tree, trident maples. I think I might purchase from Brent Korean hornbeams and trident maples.
Sorry, looks like I got too worried in the past week and obsessed over 2 little tree's.
I'll stop posting and try to figure stuff out on my own.
Also, I haven't met with my mentor in a long time. And I have had experience with those tree's, killed them, but learned. Now I can keep some tree's alive, maybe even start back with a juniper and keep that alive.
Thanks.
 
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Sorry if I came across as a " oh I got a mentor and experience"
Yeah, I ditched bonsai for the last few months. I had some issues, but now I'm back, and I forgot a lot in the past.
I want to be a bonsai master, but I need to first learn patience and how to keep a tree alive.
 

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