Getting to a big trunk quickly - JBP

[Skinnygoomba]

I want to run my plan by you guys and see if there is room for improvement. I have a JBP, it's about 15" tall currently in a regular garden container (1 gal). I slip potted it, broke up the root ball lightly and removed the roots that were ringing the bottom of the container.

I clipped a few branches (not much) but I left the great majority because at this point I feel like more branches is better to help. I wires those that I would like to retain for the life of the tree and also wired the trunk. I bent the trunk and the branches that I want to retain.

I'm having trouble finding out what my timing should be like, I'd like to move it into a training pot that is 15" x 15" x 4". Can I do that anytime or should I wait for specific timing?

I put it into a mix of pumice/pine bark/Lava.

Sorry for the amateur questions, but it seems like some things are left out of the books I've been reading.

I plan to feed heavily until first frost then stop until spring.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Repotting is best left until spring. Although if you repotted it this spring and want to do it again next spring, you'll be setting the tree back in terms of bulking up. Get the roots right first, in good soil, shallow pan, then you can grow it out, by establishing the final design, identifying which branches are sacrifice and which are final.

Remember sacrifice branches thicken trunks and branches, final branches are intended to be developed to keep foliage close to the trunk. Sacrifice branches get to run wild, final branches need to be tended. Because of this, you really need to start with the end in mind with pines.

Search here for some posts by Eric Schrader (sp?) and me on sacrifice branches with JBP; some good material is out here already. Remember to start with the right work for the season you're working in. Fall is pruning, wiring, and removing old needles. Identify sacrifice branches, remove their old needles. Wire final branches and prune them so they fork in pairs, close to the trunk.

Here is an example where final branches and sacrifice branches are pretty easy to tell apart. This one is about halfway to the trunk thickness I want, but all the final branches are also being developed while the sacrifice branch continues to thicken the trunk.

 

[Skinnygoomba]

Thanks Brian, I appreciate your insight. That picture is very interesting and it does really give a fantastic insight into how one should grow before cutting the top.

I didnt get very aggressive with the root ball, just loosened it up a bit then moved it into a bigger pot since I had a feeling that it was the wrong timing for a fully involved repotting.

Would it be best if I let it recover for a year before I move it into a training pot?

I'll start reading up on Eric's threads.

 

[KennedyMarx]

Brian, do you always use the top most leader as the sacrifice when growing out JBP? I have a few one/two year seedlings that I'm going to put into pond baskets next spring and I'm wondering how different it would be to use the first branch as the sacrifice. I'm thinking wiring it away from the rest of the tree out to the side then straight up while keeping the other portion in check. My thinking here is that it will create more taper with a really fat base, but a skinnier middle. I'm wondering how the tree will actually respond in practice. This is just some random thinking at the moment. I've been reading over your JBP book, Eric's thread and his blog while I'm waiting.

 

[Skinnygoomba]

Eric's 6 year pine thread is really interesting and informative.

 

[Skinnygoomba]

Did some pruning on this guy today, I'll post that tomorrow-ish

Leaving this one alone and letting that top branch go wild.

 

[FromSeed]

Brian, do you always use the top most leader as the sacrifice when growing out JBP? I have a few one/two year seedlings that I'm going to put into pond baskets next spring and I'm wondering how different it would be to use the first branch as the sacrifice. I'm thinking wiring it away from the rest of the tree out to the side then straight up while keeping the other portion in check. My thinking here is that it will create more taper with a really fat base, but a skinnier middle. I'm wondering how the tree will actually respond in practice. This is just some random thinking at the moment. I've been reading over your JBP book, Eric's thread and his blog while I'm waiting.

I'm also curious about the placement of sacrificial growth. I feel like letting a leader near or as the top probably gives you a less artificial look, as this is the natural pattern of an apically dominant species. A fat base is nice in it's own right and some, including myself, like the look, but some don't. I also feel like any branches above a sacrifice would also be weaker due to energy being allocated strongly below. I could be very wrong about all of this, just my take.

 

[0soyoung]

In the beginning, the sacrifice leader is the 'top-most leader'. One also maintains sacrifice branches low on the trunk so that it thickens more near the base creating taper - without them the trunk is damn close to a cylinder.

At some point the sacrifice leader is chopped off and one of the side branches becomes the new sacrificial leader (zig-zag) and the process is repeated. That sacrifice is abandoned when the branch (now trunk) is nearing the thickness of the lower trunk (else the trunk taper will be lost).

Brent Walston goes through this process in his articles and adds some further clarification in his old blog.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

You can definitely grow sacrifice portions on final branches. Just try to keep them to the back and out of the way of final branches. Also, watch for reverse taper as it can develop.

Additional sacrifice branches on the trunk are fine, but more branches means more scars and more chances for bulges to develop.

My pine showed above will keep that sacrifice branch (or most of it) through next year, and sacrifice branches are being developed among the final branches. Those are not candle pruned, and will be allowed to develop where I want branches to thicken. It will need 2-3 more years in the ground, then up to a training pot.

With your pine, here's what I would do.
1. The sacrifice area is circled in yellow, remove all needles except 10 pairs surrounding each of next year's buds.
2. The current planned trunk line is in brown. Do not wire it.
3. Prune the current trunk line at the red mark. This will force it to back bud.
4. Next year, the trunk line will grow toward the shape shown in the green line.
5. Feed well, and let's revisit next fall.

 

[Skinnygoomba]

Thanks Brian!

Does the overall size that you are working toward contribute to your choice in branches? Or are you going for movement first before determining how large of a tree you would like.

Drives me to my second question, if going for a larger tree do I let the internodes get longer for a few years of growing or possibly many years of growing.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Thanks Brian!

Does the overall size that you are working toward contribute to your choice in branches? Or are you going for movement first before determining how large of a tree you would like.

Drives me to my second question, if going for a larger tree do I let the internodes get longer for a few years of growing or possibly many years of growing.

Determine first how big you want the tree, then add appropriate movement, and try to keep branches emerging in the outsides of bends.

Even if you're going for a larger tree, I'd still try to keep the internodes short on final branches. It's always best to have good, tight ramification. And it's much easier to extend growth than compact it.

And if you're asking because I chose the lowest branch to be the trunk, it's because unless you want a formal upright, it's always better to have movement starting close to the ground.

This pine has an 8' tall sacrifice branch, and I will prune it down to 3" tall in the next couple years to the branch I'm holding in the first photo. That branch will become the next trunk section, which means the tree will have 3 angles of movement in the first 4" of trunk.

 

[sorce]

I'm also curious about the placement of sacrificial growth. I feel like letting a leader near or as the top probably gives you a less artificial look, as this is the natural pattern of an apically dominant species. A fat base is nice in it's own right and some, including myself, like the look, but some don't. I also feel like any branches above a sacrifice would also be weaker due to energy being allocated strongly below. I could be very wrong about all of this, just my take.

Im not a piner. This is a questionish answer. But....

Everything below a sacrifice point thickens. So the top/leader sacrifice is for whole tree size, while the low sacs are for taper (essential IMO).

So keepimg the top a hair thinner then the low sacs should increase taper and whole size. But reversing this will lessen taper/ negate purpose of low sac. ??

Tooop/Looooooow = taper. Top/Looooooooooooow = more taper. Etc.

Also, I beleive energy allocation has to do with exposure to light more so than position on trunk. Exposure and green area.

Thoughts?

Sorce

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Tall sacrifice growth waving in the wind creates big buttressing bases.
These photos are a year apart, and I think the taper is actually improving through the base swelling.

 

[Adair M]

I agree with Brian Do not stake the tree, it will make it tall with no strength. The swaying does stress the tree, and it responds by putting on more wood.

 

[Skinnygoomba]

Determine first how big you want the tree, then add appropriate movement, and try to keep branches emerging in the outsides of bends.

Even if you're going for a larger tree, I'd still try to keep the internodes short on final branches. It's always best to have good, tight ramification. And it's much easier to extend growth than compact it.

And if you're asking because I chose the lowest branch to be the trunk, it's because unless you want a formal upright, it's always better to have movement starting close to the ground.

This pine has an 8' tall sacrifice branch, and I will prune it down to 3" tall in the next couple years to the branch I'm holding in the first photo. That branch will become the next trunk section, which means the tree will have 3 angles of movement in the first 4" of trunk.

Wow, that's pretty incredible, I thought I was reading that incorrectly to begin with. I will keep with the shorter internodes, that makes a lot of sense.

Tall sacrifice growth waving in the wind creates big buttressing bases.
These photos are a year apart, and I think the taper is actually improving through the base swelling.

I agree with Brian Do not stake the tree, it will make it tall with no strength. The swaying does stress the tree, and it responds by putting on more wood.

Thanks on both of these as well.

 

[FromSeed]

Im not a piner. This is a questionish answer. But....

Everything below a sacrifice point thickens. So the top/leader sacrifice is for whole tree size, while the low sacs are for taper (essential IMO).

So keepimg the top a hair thinner then the low sacs should increase taper and whole size. But reversing this will lessen taper/ negate purpose of low sac. ??

Tooop/Looooooow = taper. Top/Looooooooooooow = more taper. Etc.

Also, I beleive energy allocation has to do with exposure to light more so than position on trunk. Exposure and green area.

Thoughts?

Sorce

I was conceptualizing having a single sacrifice at one time, not multiple. Multiple, from what I've experienced and read, is the way to go. But if one really wanted to put a lot of wood on, maybe a single apical sacrificial leader would allow you to do so in a shorter period of time. Concentrating on girth and then allow a secondary sacrifice to form down low a season before the other is removed so you can make a smooth transition into taper induction. And energy allocation does have to do with photosynthetic efficiency, but in atypical species the leader will be supported the most, regardless of it's position on the tree. So if a low branch becomes a leader, the rest of the tree above it will weaken as the plant allocates as if the original apex is not there anymore. Essentially it's hard to have two tops in an apically dominant species unless they are somewhat equal from the jump , as I understand it. So if you let a leader grow near the top it adds girth in a natural flow without reverse tape (as long as someone is watching for it) and then taper can be induced once the area above the future secondary sacrifice is important enough for the tree to keep. And wind resistance on a large leader up top does lead to buttressing and a stronger supporting root system. I could be completely wrong, once again..

 

[Skinnygoomba]

Fairly certain I killed my pine in the small pot today, sigh. In a vain attempt to put a bit more movement into the trunk I snapped it about 1/2 way through. I put it back together but I'm pretty certain this is not a good way to go.

Heading to the nursery this week, I think I will pick up a few of biggest pre-bonsai that he has so I have some material to work with. I think I have just a bit too much enthusiasm to put my reading to practice.

I will also pick up raffia, and probably some heavier wire so that I do not need to over-bend to set a curve into the trunk.

Is it better to use guy-wires on trees with large sacrifices than stakes? My thought is that it still has the ability to sway if it has guy wires.

 

[Adair M]

I'm sorry you snapped your tree.

This is why I always suggest using copper wire on pines. It will hold a bend, and you don't have to "over bend" to compensate for the wire not holding the bend.

Better to learn this lesson sooner than later!

Now, just grow it as a shohin!

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I have JBP which I've snapped branches on during the fall. The branch breaks on one side while the other still very pliable. The branches continue to stay green and survive through the following year. There are some which I've snapped and they actually produce a snapping sound sort of like when you snap a carrot in two. In this case the terminal part of the branch would probably die.

 

[Skinnygoomba]

The wire is copper, I believe my mistake is in using too light of a gauge and doubling it up thinking that it's the same thing as a heavy wire.

I appreciate the insights as always fellas, I wrapped it up like a graft to see if I can retain it.