Giant Shishigashira Repot

dbonsaiw

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I got this giant Shishi last fall from a nursery and will begin the bonsai process this spring. I intend to first repot this tree from its 20 gallon nursery pot into a 20X20X3.5" grow box. I suspect the nursery pot is jam packed with roots and assume I will be doing some serious root pruning. Any issue taking off a serious amount of roots, likely more than 75%? Also, the tree is about 5 feet tall. Should I prune the branches back as well before the root work (alternatively, take cuttings)?

My anticipated schedule for this tree is as follows:
Spring 2022 - Repot into grow box/locate graft line.
2023 - Take some air layers, including from the larger almost 2" branches.
2024 - Ground layer and ultimately cut trunks down to begin growing the main bonsai from this tree (red bonsai below is my inspiration, not my tree). I may push this another year depending on what the air layer situation is.
I'd like to have a few layers for me and my sons and potentially some more to trade for other material, so I may push the severe trunk chops out a year or so.
 

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Wulfskaar

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Nice! I am also going to be repotting my Shishigashira from nursery pot into grow box, probably within the next 3 weeks or so. Looking forward to seeing how yours turns out!

I'm wondering about your grow box dimensions. Seems large, like 6-gallons-of-soil large. Mine will be 12"x12"x5" (3 gallons) or maybe slightly smaller at 10"x10"x5" (3 gallons).
 

River's Edge

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I intend to first repot this tree from its 20 gallon nursery pot into a 20X20X3.5"
first suggestion, provide for a little better depth, if using a plastic flat then use a piece of screening to allow you to place a greater soil depth in the beginning. For the first stage of the transition I like to plan for four to five inches of depth. Plenty of time over the next ten years to reduce the depth of the root ball

second suggestion, make the most of your material, air layer off several promising trunk lines this year before repotting next year. That way you will end up with five or six very viable trees. I have found the air layering process can cause more of a back budding response lower on the tree trunks when removed.( auxin from apical tips overall is limited) The additional lower branching will be useful later on and speed up development.

third suggestion, if you choose to remove considerable foliage when you repot, seal the branch cuts.

Shishishigara have a very strong growth pattern and normally respond very well to aggressive root work.
 

SexyGArdener

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I got this giant Shishi last fall from a nursery and will begin the bonsai process this spring. I intend to first repot this tree from its 20 gallon nursery pot into a 20X20X3.5" grow box. I suspect the nursery pot is jam packed with roots and assume I will be doing some serious root pruning. Any issue taking off a serious amount of roots, likely more than 75%? Also, the tree is about 5 feet tall. Should I prune the branches back as well before the root work (alternatively, take cuttings)?

My anticipated schedule for this tree is as follows:
Spring 2022 - Repot into grow box/locate graft line.
2023 - Take some air layers, including from the larger almost 2" branches.
2024 - Ground layer and ultimately cut trunks down to begin growing the main bonsai from this tree (red bonsai below is my inspiration, not my tree). I may push this another year depending on what the air layer situation is.
I'd like to have a few layers for me and my sons and potentially some more to trade for other material, so I may push the severe trunk chops out a year or so.
I'm also in zone 7B but without the deep freeze and snow like you have in NY. Have you consider forgoing the repot and go straight to your 2023 plan of airlaying this year and ground layering the following year? Severe reduction of roots really take the vigor out of the tree and may affect your timeline; this is only from my limited and personal experience on my own Shishigashira.

Personally, I would just ground plant the tree now and airlayers whatever branches you want/like in late spring of this year since you plan on ground laying the graft off evantually anyways. You could even pile some soil up high to cover the graft area to see/hope it ground layer in the next year or two. If it haven't by next summer, then you can ground layer using the same method as your air layer.
 

dbonsaiw

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I'm wondering about your grow box dimensions.
Now I am too - 6 gallons is a lot of soil, especially if I make the box deeper.

second suggestion, make the most of your material, air layer off several promising trunk lines this year before repotting next year.

My concern is I have no idea what's going on in the nursery pot and was proceeding under the assumption the tree is pot bound. Also wanted to get it into better soil.

Frankly, I would prefer to forgo the repot and start with the layers. How can I tell if the tree can stay in the nursery pot another year? (P.S. I only suggested pruning some smaller branches to balance out the root prune, if that was needed at all).
 

River's Edge

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Now I am too - 6 gallons is a lot of soil, especially if I make the box deeper.



My concern is I have no idea what's going on in the nursery pot and was proceeding under the assumption the tree is pot bound. Also wanted to get it into better soil.

Frankly, I would prefer to forgo the repot and start with the layers. How can I tell if the tree can stay in the nursery pot another year? (P.S. I only suggested pruning some smaller branches to balance out the root prune, if that was needed at all).
I would assume if the drainage is fine you are safe to wait for another year. The foliage and structure in the pictures look like the tree is very healthy so I would concern myself with drainage only at this point. The roots will take a couple of sessions to sort out likely and there will be several repots down the road before a finish size bonsai pot.
if you do wish to air layer then begin fertilization as the tree begins to show foliage. if using organic start two weeks earlier as it needs to break down before beginning to have the elements available for the tree. If using liquid then you can start when the foliage begins to show.
 

Japonicus

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Now I am too - 6 gallons is a lot of soil, especially if I make the box deeper.
This grow box I made for my JM is about the same size you started the thread with
but with 2x6" for the sides. If my math is about right
its volume is just over 12 gallons. I.D 21" x 21" x 5.5", is my actual dimensions.
I would recommend to finalize the box size once ready to pot it up, having reduced the roots as far as comfortable.
Then decided what the dimensions should be. Having the material at the ready before you lift it.
IIRC I used at least 12 gallons of bonsai soil on a bare rooted dig.

In this thread I linked, I dug the tree one year and replanted in same spot, then lifted it
and cut back the following year. It is not happy with me, as I followed the advice of others
to cut back trunks more than I had begun with the 1st go of it.

Severe reduction of roots really take the vigor out of the tree and may affect your timeline
This can be so true, and I wish I had left more leaf area to aid recovery
before I reduced top side as much as I did.
 

Lorax7

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If you are already experienced at layering and have a high success rate, maybe consider doing the ground layer before doing the various air layers on the branches. With lots of foliage above, the ground layer should root quickly and the resulting nice radial nebari will have extra time to grow and develop good taper at the base of the trunk in the later stages of your plan while you’re taking air layers from the branches to reduce the top. Just a thought.

Of course, if you don’t have extensive layering, doing air layers on the branches first is the more conservative approach and gives you plenty of practice before ground layering the trunk.
 

tangledtanuki

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Like the fact that you've planned this out so far ahead. Looks like there may be quite a few tree's in there.
 

dbonsaiw

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If you are already experienced at layering and have a high success rate,
I have no experience with air layers, so will start with the branches. How many branches can I layer at a time and how tall can they be?
 

Hack Yeah!

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Theoretically, you can layer them all at the same time. The more foliage above the layer the better for root production. Try to identify a couple of nice curves or something interesting to layer to set you up more quickly for that new tree. Good luck!
 

Lorax7

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Theoretically, you can layer them all at the same time. The more foliage above the layer the better for root production. Try to identify a couple of nice curves or something interesting to layer to set you up more quickly for that new tree. Good luck!
Important caveat: This is only true if there is only one air layer along the path from any branch tip down through the trunk to the roots. You can layer multiple branches in parallel, but you can't have, for example, 2 air layers along a single branch, where one layer is distal and the other is proximal, to where the branch attaches to the trunk. Similarly, you can't have an air layer on the main trunk and also have an air layer on a branch that attaches to the trunk at a point above where the trunk air layer is located.
 

Dav4

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Important caveat: This is only true if there is only one air layer along the path from any branch tip down through the trunk to the roots. You can layer multiple branches in parallel, but you can't have, for example, 2 air layers along a single branch, where one layer is distal and the other is proximal, to where the branch attaches to the trunk. Similarly, you can't have an air layer on the main trunk and also have an air layer on a branch that attaches to the trunk at a point above where the trunk air layer is located.
Actually, this isn't true. A successful layer needs adequate foliage to support THAT layer... an uninterrupted path from the roots to the layered branch/trunk segment isn't needed. You can absolutely layer a single trunk in multiple spots along its length as long as their is adequate foliage to support each layer. I've carried out multiple layers simultaneously on several trees in the past... both trunks were ground layered at the same time, and all layers were successful.
 

Lorax7

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Actually, this isn't true. A successful layer needs adequate foliage to support THAT layer... an uninterrupted path from the roots to the layered branch/trunk segment isn't needed. You can absolutely layer a single trunk in multiple spots along its length as long as their is adequate foliage to support each layer. I've carried out multiple layers simultaneously on several trees in the past... both trunks were ground layered at the same time, and all layers were successful.
Hmm... I learn something new every day...
the-more-you-know-meme-gif-5.gif
 

dbonsaiw

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The more I think about it, the more I believe a ground layer is the best place to start (I just won't have this much top growth again to support it). I was under the impression, however, that a prerequisite to the ground layer is digging out the trunk and ascertaining where the graft is and then deciding where to make the layer (kind of why I gravitated to the repot first). Instead of a repot, I can always just comb out the top of the soil to get a better view.

Any guidance on where to make the ring to get the best ascetic would be appreciated. This trunk is massive - about 6" diameter at the base and is almost a square. How thick should the ring be made? I'll use Hormex 8 rooting hormone and assume the layer will be on for at least a year. Should I also tourniquet towards the top of the ring? As for soil, I can use my standard bonsai soil (40% pumice, 40% calcined clay, 20% pine bark) unless there is a better suggestion. I'm willing to splurge for some good akadama or whatever if that is best.

Also, when to perform the layer. Merrigioli appears to be of the opinion with Acer in general that when buds swell is the best time to layer. Others seem to favor later in the season.
 

Dav4

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Honestly, you'll be the best judge of where to perform the ground layer. If it were me, I'd dig under the soil surface and look for either a graft or the root base. If the options down there aren't good, I'd consider making the layer right where the sub-trunks split from the main one, basically creating a clump style (likely my first choice). As far as timing for the layer, I've performed them both before bud break and after the spring push- equally successful. Remember, the layer gets powered by leaves so nothing will happen until the new leaves start to photosynthesize. The other side of the coin is that the layer is easier to do, imo, when the tree is naked.
 

dbonsaiw

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This turned out to be a complete disaster. In retrospect, I should have simply air layered/ground layered, but when I removed it from the pot it was horrifically root bound - literally no visible soil from the sides. Me and my son worked on this tree for almost 4 hours (I am still sore) and could not get the roots freed in any way. After sawing part of the bottom off, we saw that most of the "soil" was actually a giant ball of clay - could have been 25 lbs of clay. Hours of combing and poking and the root ball was still a giant mass of roots and soil. We massacred this tree, gave up and ultimately put him back in a pot. not sure he will pull through.
 

Jester217300

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If you have a difficult repot like this you can leave the root ball soaking in water overnight to help loosen up the old soil.

Put what you have left in a pot just slightly bigger than the current root mass. Use good soil, water well. A big root ball like that can take a lot.
 

dbonsaiw

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If you have a difficult repot like this you can leave the root ball soaking in water overnight to help loosen up the old soil.
I will definitely try that next time. I repotted a large nursery maple from a 10 gallon pot as well - very different experience. The root system was massive and it took me time (I will invest in some power tools for the next one as I dont want to be sawing 3 inch roots by hand anymore), but the soil was very different - basically a coarse mix of bark which lent itself to freeing the roots fairly easily. I filled this 10 gallon pot with the clay from the shishi and there was still a ton all over the floor. I'm not even sure how this thing grew in a ball of clay. This shishi project was just insane. Just manipulating a 100 lb tree that was more than 5 feet was work enough. At least I trunk chopped the japanese maple so it was a much easier project.

For those buying material from nurseries, I would strongly encourage that you bring a chopstick along and look for the nebari. I was so excited for the shishi that I did not do this and it probably cost me my tree. If I would have done this (like I did for other nursery stock) I would have learned that the nebari was nowhere near the top of the soil. It seems that this tree may have been topped off with soil multiple times while living in this pot. This soil covered at least 5" of the trunk and the roots grew upwards and completely colonized this area. In trying to free up the roots, I cut off large diameter roots from the bottom. What I did not realize is that I may very well have cut off the nebari from which the entire root mass was growing. All because I assumed the nebari was much higher up than it actually was.
 
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