Ginkgo Biloba

[KiwiPlantGuy]

I guess so, was kind of thinking regarding stronger growing off the rootstock vs weaker paler growth.
See what Jerry has to say also.

 

[Jerry Harder]

I have a few questions about this amazing tree species. ( and their root system)
Ginkgo ( non- grafted) doesn't grow well on its own roots?? True or False?
If the answer to the first question is TRUE, then do I purchase a grafted dwarf cultivar ( princess?? ) for $50 and the air-layer the top. I am a bit confused. ( if it doesn't grow it's own roots that well etc ).
Also I propagated 6 inch semi - hardwood cuttings last year which did root but root system was a bit shaky for a few months after prop etc.
Looking forward to some answers please and thanks, Charles.

I think the "week on its own roots" is a myth. From what I have read on some ginkgo propagation papers for cuttings, if you get a 50% success your doing pretty well. Your little tree has just spent all it's energy making itself a set of roots thus is very week and spends most of its second year balancing and reestablishing itself. That's why it initially is growing so slow. One reason everything is grafted is that ginkgos are easy to grow from seed and easy to graft. At 50% success rate it takes 2 cuttings to make 1 tree but each cutting has 6 buds on it. The success rate of grafting is very high and the trees I have been getting seem to be made with a scion of 2 buds, so from a propagators point of view he gets 6 trees instead of one, if he grafts instead of takes cuttings. If he is working with something he has discovered he may have very little material to work with. Loping off a sapling and grafting a couple buds on it gives a powerful root system that is trying to balance itself by making a new top out of those two little buds so it will grow like crazy with no delays like there are with the cuttings. It's ready to sell almost as soon as the graft takes. Ginkgos are 280 to 170 million year species=not week on there own roots. (or much of anything else). Any given new variety though, could have its own quarks. I know that grafting fruit trees gets crazy in spacifics and it can change tree size or fruit quality or maturing rates. I don't know the status of root stock development for ginkgo grafts. Some of mine seem to be on rooted cuttings but that might be the only choice available to to the propagator. It takes 30 years for ginkgos to mature enough to reproduce and you need both a male and female tree so rooting cuttings in mass from any ginkgo and developing the root stock from them to do the grafts might be what is sometimes done. I have a couple plants that seem to be grafted twice. Was that a failed graft re-grafted, or special circumstances? I don't know. Your turn! Tell us how you were successful on your cutting propagation. How many cuttings?, How many took? How did you do it? (Try please to be more specific than what's in most of the internet search articles that show up.) I should know in another month if mine took.

 

[Jerry Harder]

I have a few questions about this amazing tree species. ( and their root system)
Ginkgo ( non- grafted) doesn't grow well on its own roots?? True or False?
If the answer to the first question is TRUE, then do I purchase a grafted dwarf cultivar ( princess?? ) for $50 and the air-layer the top. I am a bit confused. ( if it doesn't grow it's own roots that well etc ).
Also I propagated 6 inch semi - hardwood cuttings last year which did root but root system was a bit shaky for a few months after prop etc.
Looking forward to some answers please and thanks, Charles.

Heres the one i have !
View attachment 156475

What variety is it?

 

[Jerry Harder]

 

[Jerry Harder]

This is my 'Folkerts Select' purchased this spring from Whitman Farms in the US. It is being air layered off the root stock just above the graft. The cane structure is there to support the air layer as the trunk is only pencil thick. I plan on starting the lower side shoot as a cutting in the spring and its too late in season to try that right now. The top of the air layer bag to the second branch (which will be the first branch) is about 9 inches. I think we are looking at what will be the back of the tree, and we have a long way to go to be called "Bonsai" But the branch structure at the top will make a beautiful formal upright.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi Jerry,
Thank you for your comments and in depth look at the cutting grown ginkgo plants. Your opinion gives me hope as I considered the cuttings to be inferior to the seedlings ( rootstock).
I have been in the nursery trade ( landscape plants and commercial cut flower production) all my career at 25 years now. I can see the commercial viability thing re propagating via grafts etc.

My tiny experience so far is taking 8 cuttings and getting 6 rooted with enough roots to pot on etc. Cuttings taken as 4-6 inch length and semi- hardwood ( after spring growth hardened etc). Oh nearly forgot, bottom heat and misting ( misting probably more important) and took about 6-8 weeks to root.

New Zealand doesn't have enough population to get loads of varieties. There's only 2 I know of. The standard one with big leaf and stretched growth habit, and a new? one I am interested in buying called 'Ming Princess'. Bit corny but has a lovely dwarf habit with 10-15 branches in its 1 meter height and 10 litre pot. ( grafted tho). No photo yet sorry.
I think your desire to get loads of back budding is honorable but maybe trying to get an apple out of an orange ( if you get my drift).
As you say tho, in 15 - 25 years time we might have something vaguely worthwhile as ginkgo bonsai. I do love the tree very much as the leaves are so unique.
Charles.

 

[defra]

What variety is it?

Not sure sold to me as gibko biloba so its a ginkgo biloba to me

 

[Jerry Harder]

Yesterday I posted a missive and picture. I can't see either here and KiwiPlantGuy posted a response which I can't see here but could at least read on my email system but it says "please don't reply here go to bonsai nut. can anyone help? Did anyone see the pic and Kiwi's response?

 

[Jerry Harder]

And... soon as I posted the query above, KiwiPlantGuy post showed up above my query but still not my pic or previous post.

Hi Jerry,
Thank you for your comments and in depth look at the cutting grown ginkgo plants. Your opinion gives me hope as I considered the cuttings to be inferior to the seedlings ( rootstock).
I have been in the nursery trade ( landscape plants and commercial cut flower production) all my career at 25 years now. I can see the commercial viability thing re propagating via grafts etc.

My tiny experience so far is taking 8 cuttings and getting 6 rooted with enough roots to pot on etc. Cuttings taken as 4-6 inch length and semi- hardwood ( after spring growth hardened etc). Oh nearly forgot, bottom heat and misting ( misting probably more important) and took about 6-8 weeks to root.

New Zealand doesn't have enough population to get loads of varieties. There's only 2 I know of. The standard one with big leaf and stretched growth habit, and a new? one I am interested in buying called 'Ming Princess'. Bit corny but has a lovely dwarf habit with 10-15 branches in its 1 meter height and 10 litre pot. ( grafted tho). No photo yet sorry.
I think your desire to get loads of back budding is honorable but maybe trying to get an apple out of an orange ( if you get my drift).
As you say tho, in 15 - 25 years time we might have something vaguely worthwhile as ginkgo bonsai. I do love the tree very much as the leaves are so unique.
Charles.

You are right. Ginkgos don't backbud much, even with normal bonsai methods that are supposed to encourage it. But that is not quite what I was talking about. I am talking about turning a short bud into a long shoot. I will write a separate snipit shortly and it will be more clear but have to go for now. BTY I am not a professional nurcery man, just a farm boy that turned machinest by trade and is a somewhat well researched ginkgo crazy enthousist.

 

[Jerry Harder]

Ginkgos grow two ways: long shoots and short shoots and at any given time one can turn into the other. Top leaders are almost always long shoots. During a season the long shoots will grow 6 to 12 inches or more but it depends on size health and variety of the tree. Long shoots will have a leaf every 1-2 inches usually on every other side of the shoot. Short shoots are short, as in usually less that an inch, mostly just a bud and this bud will and leaf out with several leaves around the bud season after season. You will usually find short shoots on older wood. If the tree is old enough to reproduce, the mail or female parts (they come on different trees) are always on short shoots. Ginkgos don't back bud like other trees but tend to have buds all along a long shoot as it grows. Which short shoots will turn into long shoots seems totally random. I am trying to find a way to turn / encourage a short shoot to take off and grow into a long shoot. In bonsai, I am reluctant to remove all the buds that I don't want to be long shoot because they are photosenthic power for the developing tree. Along the trunk, for example they can also help to thicken the trunk. Low down on the branch they can help thicken it to shape its taper. I think that removing all the buds that you do not want to grow into a long shoot might be a way to get that last bud or two to long shoot out into a branch, but if something happens and it doesn't, or gets broken and dies you are likely to have lost all the other options including the energy all those short buds might be giving the tree. Ginkgos are not great backbudders. Once the buds are removed, that's pretty much it, there gone forever. In the spring I will be trying 2 experiments. The first is to put a grow light on a timer and give some short buds I want to be branches some extra light. The other thing is to use some gallic acid on the buds I want to grow. I got this idea from a published propagation experiment where it was used as a rooting hormone. It did not produce the best rooting but the cuttings where the gallic acid was used budded with the highest rate (97.5%). It was however applied to the cut bottom of the cutting so I might be barking up the wrong tree so to speak. The last thing I might try if the other two ideas don't work is to shade the buds I want to grow. Sometimes plants in the shade get spindly but grow like crazy to get to the sunlight. I would love any other ideas to try.

 

[Jerry Harder]

And... soon as I posted the query above, KiwiPlantGuy post showed up above my query but still not my pic or previous post.

You are right. Ginkgos don't backbud much, even with normal bonsai methods that are supposed to encourage it. But that is not quite what I was talking about. I am talking about turning a short bud into a long shoot. I will write a separate snipit shortly and it will be more clear but have to go for now. BTY I am not a professional nurcery man, just a farm boy that turned machinest by trade and is a somewhat well researched ginkgo crazy enthousist.

I live in the US. You hardly ever see a ginkgo tree here, But I am lucky: I can get many different cultivars. More than I have money for! One company claims that they have over 150 ginkgo varietals, and they currently have about 85 types posted for sale right now. I am collecting my own list and have notes on other places with about 10-20 cultivars that are not on the first places list of 85. The trees types range in sizes from 2 feet tall at maturity to 100 ft. Different natural shapes and growing habits, like weeping, creeping, globe shaped, columnar and pyramid. There are those with different leaf size, and leaf shapes (from normal to jagged to deeply split to variegation variations to tube shaped, and thread like shaped leaves, -All still ginkgo. Usually there descriptions are not as good as I would like. Leaves "dense and compact" doesn't really tell me much.

 

[Jerry Harder]

Here is one of the short buds on the root stock of my Ginkgo Biloba cultivars If this bud leafs out
consistently year to year the root stock might be more valuable than the graft tree itself. A popular cultivar here in the states is 'jade butterflies' whose leaves sort of look like butterflies. This looks way more like a moth than the 'JB' looks like butterflies. I think I might have discovered my own cultivar! : 'Lunar Moth' That would be way cool!

 

[Jerry Harder]

Does anyone know if ginkgo can be reproduced by root cuttings. I ask this because one of my cultivar's root stock has a diamond pattern on it all around the trunk. The trunk is basically gray but there are brown lines that crisscross making really pretty and ancient looking pattern. I am in the process of air layering the top on to its ownto roots and there will still be a couple of scion buds left on the top of it after the air layer is removed I would not mind having a second tree of the cultivar but I am interested in propigating the bottom half of this tree and there are no natural root stock buds. I am after that really cool and unusual bark pattern.

 

[Jerry Harder]

Here is Ginkgo Biloba 'Joeahsphat' The picture shows one of two short buds and part of one long shoot. It looks like it may make for a pretty good formal cascade (the long shoot is this years growth and over a foot long) but the reality is the "little tree" will be one of the short shoot buds which are on the main trunk (the second bud is directly opposite the visible one and hidden buy the center leaf) and the current long shoot will be the cascading trunk which is actually a side branch. I think eventually you won't be able to tell that the "little tree" isn't actually the first branch and the cascade isn't really the main trunk. The main point though, was to show a long and short shoot..

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi, I was not trying to down- play your enthusiasm, just trying to introduce myself and background.
I can offer an opinion about dormant buds, and my guess is that some parts of the tree may have different amounts/levels of hormones. Depending on how high up the trunk they are. OR as other learned comments lead me to think that many of the buds are very dormant, and not much can alter their sleepiness.
Lastly, I can say that a vigorously growing ginkgo can be defoliated to initiate back-budding but you seem to have different results.

Please explain your short bud thing as maybe a high Nitrogen feed could be enough to push it long??

 

[Jerry Harder]

Hi, I was not trying to down- play your enthusiasm, just trying to introduce myself and background.
I can offer an opinion about dormant buds, and my guess is that some parts of the tree may have different amounts/levels of hormones. Depending on how high up the trunk they are. OR as other learned comments lead me to think that many of the buds are very dormant, and not much can alter their sleepiness.
Lastly, I can say that a vigorously growing ginkgo can be defoliated to initiate back-budding but you seem to have different results.

Please explain your short bud thing as maybe a high Nitrogen feed could be enough to push it long??

Never felt down played at all, just putting "credentials" in order, AND maybe I'm not exactly using proper official terminology. My understanding is that dorment buds are not very visible and actively growing. In the picture of 'Joeahsphat' above the short bud is the top bud on the left of the central stem. It is actively growing with lots of leaves on it. (6-8 of them. The lower stem is about 18 in long and they were both the same size (a big fat juicy bud) this spring. The short may leaf out like that many years in a row while the longer one may grow a foot every year. Neither are dormant. There was a small scale experiment done on a couple of branches (The major part of the experiment had something to do with bud developement6 I didn't really understand) defoliating slowed and stopped the long bud branches from growing -at least for the season. No mention was made as to back budding. It's worth experimenting with but I think extra N would just make the long bud grow faster with longer internodes. Also after several years the short buds which grow just a little bit every year looks kind of spur like. Note the leaf scar from last year on the long shoot. It looks like it was a short bud last year. If this doesn't help try asking more q's please. This is great discussion!

 

[Jerry Harder]

I don't know if this helps but the first article says they can be effected by treatments. I have not found a "Treatment" mentioned anywhere though.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2437781?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

https://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publications/critchfield/psw_1970_critchfield002.pdf

http://www.amjbot.org/content/96/11/1957.full

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24061214

 

[Jerry Harder]

Yesterday I asked about propagation with root cuttings and ginkgo biloba. Here is a photo og the interesting bark on one I have.

 

[Jerry Harder]

How do I control the size of my pictures here. Thumbnail are just useless but the giant full size is awkward.

 

[Jerry Harder]

So now I am super excited. The leaves on some of my ginkgos are getting yellow. Usually that means there is something wrong with the roots like poor drainage. ...that could be since I used moisture control planting soil instead of bonsai medium, and its been rainy. Also some of the air layer plastic bags are letting that rain water in but it doesn't appear to be draining out. So I decided to check out the air layer in the yellowing plants. Here is Ginkgo Giloba 'Chi Chi', a c cultivar that was selected for its ability to produce the chi chi growths. I use the tourniquet style air layer and put a copper wire tourniquet on it just tight enough it didn't slide around on June 29 -17 so its been 6 weeks. The plant has been growing and as it grows the tourniquet gets tighter and tighter. Now it is suffering from the fact that the connection with its roots is becoming restricted. Its response to this is the leaves started to turn yellow and it looks just like a plant with soggy roots. It is also responding another way as shown in the next photo.