Got my kids up off the ground floor.

Orion_metalhead

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The white-splaining has to stop!

Since this appears aimed at me, suddenly the ghost of this thread...

You mean having a different perspective due to drastically different real world experiences and upbringing has to stop? Tell me how I can go back in time and replace my life experiences, my parent's life experiences, and all which, at least in my eyes and life, has proven to hold true. Tell me how to replace the multi-generational experiences, effort, and understandings with what you deem to be sufficient.

What happened to George Floyd was wrong and horrific and there are four police officers being charged with murder and whatnot. Thats the way our justice system works for both police officers and citizens alike. If he is found innocent, that is a tragedy, and a shame.
 

sorce

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aimed at me

Perhaps, but I believe you are an ....equal participant in this thread as any other.

I don't see anyone meaning you harm.

We have to be careful with our emotions as we approach such serious, meaningful subjects.

I see no harm here at all.

Just thoughtful, excited people.

Love.

Sorce
 

sorce

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Y'all should go back and re-read what each other wrote.

It's all good!

Sorce
 

Orion_metalhead

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Oh, I know no one means me harm, and I mean no one harm as well. I only ever debate and raise concern with one's arguments and positions, never with a person themselves, because I believe our perspectives are informed from our life experiences. I adore everyone, mostly, on this site.
 

PiñonJ

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this appears aimed at me
No, it's not just you. It's all over the internet. Memes posted by white people, trying to instruct black protestors on the proper way to protest. People abhorring the destruction of property, but not saying a word against the fundamental injustice in the system, which has led to the unrest. It's easy to be against murder. It's harder to put yourself in the shoes of a person who's at much higher risk than their white fellow citizens of dying at the hands of law enforcement, or self-styled vigilantes every time they walk out their door. This is especially true for young black men. As a father, it breaks my heart to hear about and think about the conversations that black parents have to have with their children to try and keep them safe. When they hear people decrying the property damage without acknowledging the ongoing injustice, they think that those individuals truly don't give a damn about their plight. Again, I'm not aiming this at you. I have no doubt you are well-intentioned. I just think the situation calls for a little more empathy and recognition of the basic problem, which is not property damage. That will go away. Will the injustice go away? That is where the real work is needed.
 

Cadillactaste

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So I was looking at our local news reporting on the protestors. (Three which stayed.) They were upset that the community were allowed to stand as a group with CCP carriers to "watch" over them to ensure no looting or destruction. They went on to call the reporter who told the story...Racist. Kicker...is, he is black. Which is rediculous...It hurts me, when my family which are black...have the fear @Johnathan's family experienced. You just can't even put yourself in their shoes...You can feel for them. But you can not grasp it. I am white skinned...my biratial nieces and nephews...their kids...and their father and his family...ALL experience this to some degree. The fear...to not misstep. The fear we get when we see a cop and glance down to see if we are speeding...is nothing compared to what they feel. I sometimes forget the ignorance of others...THEY ARE FAMILY...and I am scared for them.

I still have trouble with destruction of property...what did the owners of the businesses do? They are trying to recover from Covid...where is their cushion $$$ to recover while their places are rebuilt and repaired? I can't watch the news...and see their distress...of hopelessness. My family can't either. Kicking a human being down when they are already on their knees. To me...is a disgrace of the human race. I agree to the anger...well placed. But...not on innocent ones not responsible. That too is a crime of injustice. Some never recovered from the Covid...or was on the bare clusp of just hanging on. This will destroy them. They won't have the income that opening back up would have brought them.
 

A. Gorilla

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>>Will the injustice go away?

Fuzzy speech which appeals lowest denominator feel-good bro vibes with no precision about what to actually do, but that's another topic.

Broadly, the answer is no. Never. That is technically and forever true. It is a constant grind with no finish line.

All humans range from fallible to sadistic. We all have the mark of Cain.

If every police department member were replaced with non-binary, non-white, PhDs in sociology, guess what? They would be fucking shit up in their own lovely way. Psych 101 always includes the Stamford prison experiment, does it not? Refresh your memory if you need to.

Secondly, unlike some other countries, police practices and policies are modular. If there is a messed up culture of hiring, training, vetting, or discipline ; that has nothing to do with the neighboring County or city. That's why nation wide *destruction* for local happenstance is dumb.

"Insurance will pay for random property destruction. Its all good because of fuzzy made up sociology words."

And health insurance will pay for injuries, I suppose? That would be logically consistent.

Sick, demented, lazy, narcissistic train of thought.


 
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leatherback

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Good real dialogue has power to change.
If we let it.
This.

The challenge is however... There are people in the world so self-absorbed they do not listen to what "the others", those who have a different experience and world view, have to say. Given the chance, they block the alternative voice out. (You see this in micro scale happening even on this forum where we are supposed to have a shared interest: The "ignore" function. Great if you are being harassed. Here it is used by people to block those who have a different view.)

Add to that the need for true leadership. Leaders that focus on fairness and equality. Leaders that aim at teaching unity over division.

As long as people actively decide to look away, and never open up to the idea that maybe the other side has a point too, things will never change. So I am pessimistic in this. I think individuals might change. But fundamental changes in society.. It is too scary for many.
 

sorce

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do not listen

I don't believe this good dialogue will make people listen, or provide any new ideas.

The dialogue is to uncover different words to say.

It's to find new ways to say the same things.

I don't think it's that people don't listen, it's that without empathic words, "jamming orders down someone's throat" is only going to make them more violent.

Similar to how we don't use "saw" we use "chop".

It's the principal of "everyone learns differently".
True, yet we go around teaching the same thing the same way thinking we will reach more people.

This is why I don't understand why Smoke can't be happy with his following, the one that knows what the 1/8-1/4 rule is, and who coined the phrase.

Numbers don't resonate with everyone, so some people need new ways to learn the same thing.

Someone who really wants to spread bonsai respects this, doesn't get angry against it!

Forgive my rant there, but this is the same reason it is ok for us to talk about the same stuff again and again. People are learning from it, that haven't learned from the other 30 threads on it. This is ok!

It's how people work!

Be optimistic!

Sorce
 

Boscology

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It happened pretty fast in MN during the week in which George Floyd was killed by MPLS police, and by thursday, friday, and Sat each day I was praying it would rain and put out the fires or that things would come under control but what had to run its course was the emotions of the people.

I went to school with Philando Castille, a beloved grade school cafeteria worker who was shot in MN by the officer pulling him over after he told the officer he had his legal firearm in his possesion. Afterwards Philando's life and criminal record became a subject of discussion, pulled over 49 times in 13 years for the most trivial of reasons/citations lightbulb out, no seatbelt, "fitting the description" etc. He was loved by so many of the children of that school, he would have been a teacher if it weren't for institutionalized racism.


I generally avoid but respect the police, I always remind myself that anyone performing an obligation or doing a job is still a person who deserves compassion. The police in Minneapolis for the last 7 days have been afraid to show their faces and not responding to 911 calls but during curfew would walk the streets and shoot rubber bullets at people on their porches or if they peek out their door. They didnt let people protest downtown the cops moved them into the residential neighborhoods, ironically into the most diverse area of MPLS where people really appreciate each other. Yea it was pretty lawless for several days, the amount of outrage from the people that are affected by them.

Everyone here knows that its the police union here that protects and keeps violent and bad cops ON the payroll but also the Hennepin County Medical examiners office, and the Hennepin County prosecutor's office. It has been one hand washes the other since the system was put into place, we are dealing with problems stemming from the same catastrophic disaster that we thought we have been fixing but its still broken.

Police want to be known for bravery but here I usually just see them on the news in a witness stand saying "I feared for my life" then explaining their own reaction based on imagination. The symbol of their antagony is a blacked out flag with just one of the stripes, colored blue

What is the meaning of a thin blue line?
The "Thin Blue Line" stands for law enforcement's separation of order from chaos, or, as Oxford Dictionaries describes, it's a reference to police,
"in the context of maintaining order during unrest."Aug 18, 2017

I think the cats out of the bag on this one because the cops haven't protected anyone in MPLS for a while now. They have been hiding and trolling social media like this MPLS officer reported today by a local paper here

 

sorce

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"I feared for my life"

Nurses fear for their life regularly, probly doctor's too, firemen, medics.

Hey asshole! You signed up to fear for your life!

Thanks for sharing. Sorry for your friend.

Sorce
 

Bonsai Nut

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And, by the way, if you fix the problem of repeated unjustified killing of black people, you will have fixed the problem of rioting.

I'm sorry my friend, but I completely disagree. I stand with MLK Jr. that the path to change is through non-violence. Protest for change... elect the politicians who will enact change... get politicians to change or get out of the way. But torching businesses and/or looting is reinforcing negative stereotypes, distracting from the message and empowering the very forces you hope to change.

Anyone aware of the violent crime statistics in Chicago this LAST WEEKEND? 111 shot, 16 fatalities. ONE WEEKEND!!! But because it was African Americans shooting other African Americans it doesn't get any coverage. Where is the national media? The social outrage? Does anyone care?

Does anyone really believe that pulling down a statue of Andrew Jackson (anywhere) is going to change anything? BE the change you want to bring about in the world. Don't enact destruction in the name of civility. Don't do violence in the name of peace.
 
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A. Gorilla

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Collectivism kills.

Launch gun offenders into federal prison, far from home, with a 5 year sentence.

It was tried in some places. Worked as planned. Significant murder and gun crime reductions for many consecutive years.

Scrapped.

Why?

It disproportionately affected people of....blah blah blah.

But wait...so does the murder itself....I thought?

But skin color of living criminals is more important than their status of just plain criminal. And more important than stacks of bodies who can't vote.

Hence the perforated meat keeps piling like cordwood. On an unremarkable weekday, Cook Co has 3 pathologists at the morgue working simultaneously with a line of bodies awaiting each one. Been there. Surreal.

🤔

Don't worry though. Electronic home monitoring will tamp that right down.
 
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PiñonJ

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torching businesses and/or looting is reinforcing negative stereotypes,
Yes, torching and looting are bad. There - I’m glad we got that settled. Now, what do you have to say about the never-ending stream of police murders of unarmed black people who have committed no violent crime? Where’s your moral outrage at that? I’m not talking about a well-documented murder by one “bad apple.” I’m talking about a historical pattern of unequal treatment that’s repeated endlessly around the country. It’s a different conversation than the one you’re trying to have.

elect the politicians who will enact change... get politicians to change or get out of the way
Of course, but not very timely when someone’s knee is crushing your trachea.

Again, Greg, I’m not refuting your points. I’m saying it’s a different conversation.
 

Nybonsai12

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Anyone aware of the violent crime statistics in Chicago this LAST WEEKEND? 111 shot, 16 fatalities. ONE WEEKEND!!! But because it was African Americans shooting other African Americans it doesn't get any coverage. Where is the national media? The social outrage? Does anyone care?

you didn’t hear about it because it doesn’t fit media narrative.
 
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Bonsai Nut

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what do you have to say about the never-ending stream of police murders of unarmed black people

Hyperbole aside, if ANYONE dies in Police custody it is a tragedy and should be investigated by a neutral (civilian) third party as a possible crime. The fact that black males are 150% more likely than non-Hispanic whites to die in Police custody needs to be explained and addressed (black females are 40% more likely to die in Police custody than non-Hispanic white females). (Though black males are more likely to die in Police custody (based on deaths per arrest), the number of white males who die in Police custody is still about 2x greater). Why does anyone need to die at all? Isn't the job of the Police to be to protect and serve the people they are policing?

Police reform has moved glacially, if at all. Depending on the statistic people want to look at, often a reduction in aggressive policing is met with a corresponding increase in violent crime. I don't believe the answer to Police violence is to pull Police off the streets, but the management of our Police forces is buried so far down below layers of bureaucracy and unions that I don't believe the Police are being held accountable by the very communities they are policing. Clearly the solution requires more oversight and more transparency, but even now our elected officials seem more interested in playing politics than in solving the problem.

Just one example of the ineptitude is the "Death in Custody Reporting Act" which was passed by Congress in 2014, but has yet to be fully implemented. Does it really take five years to develop a system to get states to report their custody deaths? How sad is it that we have to rely on private individuals to aggregate data to share on such an important issue. Where is our government?

FWIW, the reason why I mentioned Chicago violent crime is because I lived in downtown Chicago for eight years and am very familiar with the neighborhoods. All you have to do is follow Chicago politics, and see how the Chicago Police are fighting with the Mayor's office, and how the DA's Office is out-of-sync with both, and then watch as some neighborhoods continue to burn themselves up with violent crime, while other neighborhoods don't experience a single shooting in a year, and realize that there is a systemic issue that is being swept under the rug instead of addressed. That was my point. Why is it acceptable that some parts of the city have 19 gun deaths a week? If that happened in Streeterville you would have the mayor calling for the National Guard... but because it is happening in poor black neighborhoods it is ok? If you lived in those areas, can you imagine the despair you would feel? Unsafe, and no where to turn for help... because the solution might be worse than the problem.
 
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Brian Van Fleet

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Yes, torching and looting are bad. There - I’m glad we got that settled. Now, what do you have to say about the never-ending stream of police murders of unarmed black people who have committed no violent crime? Where’s your moral outrage at that? I’m not talking about a well-documented murder by one “bad apple.” I’m talking about a historical pattern of unequal treatment that’s repeated endlessly around the country. It’s a different conversation than the one you’re trying to have.
That “never-ending stream” is exactly 10 in the last 5 years:

Since 2015, The Washington Post has maintained a comprehensive database of fatal police shootings in this country,” said Carlson. “Last year, the Post logged 1,004 killings. Of the 802 shootings in which race of the police officer and the suspect was noted, 371 of the those killed were white; 236 were black. The vast majority of those killed were not in fact, ‘unarmed.’ The vast majority were armed, and Africans American suspects were significantly more likely to have a deadly weapon than white suspects. Yet more white suspects were killed.”

Carlson counted “precisely ten cases” listed by the Post “in which unarmed African Americans were fatally shot by police. There were nine men and one woman.

Sad for sure, but if you’re not in a situation where you’re interacting with cops, the likelihood of being shot by one drops to zero.
 

sorce

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but if you’re not in a situation where you’re interacting with cops

Enter the crime....

Driving while black.

......

I don't know why it seems you guys are arguing...
You're both on the same side....

Someone misread something again I think.

Sorce
 
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