Graft on Satsuki..?

[fredman]

I don't see much mention of grafting done on Azalea, and i'm wondering how successful it is in general?
I want to do this branch next spring. Its a Fuji mori Satsuki. Also, which is best...a approach or thread graft?
Thanks.

 

[Pitoon]

I've seen videos of thread, approach, and plug done on azaleas. Do some looking around you'd be suprise what can be done to improve the trees.

 

[Pitoon]

Whatever method you do ensure that the cambium touches.

 

[fredman]

I've seen videos of thread, approach, and plug done on azaleas. Do some looking around you'd be suprise what can be done to improve the trees.

Where did you find them? Google don't have any. I've seen one approach on Utube.
Yes i'll do it carefully so there's good bonding...thanks.

 

[fredman]

I'm sure it will take readily though...I mean, it is a fast growing bush

 

[Pitoon]

Where did you find them? Google don't have any. I've seen one approach on Utube.
Yes i'll do it carefully so there's good bonding...thanks.

All the videos I seen were on YouTube and in Japanese. If you look you can find them, it's been a while since I seen them but they are there on YouTube.

 

[fredman]

All the videos I seen were on YouTube and in Japanese. If you look you can find them, it's been a while since I seen them but they are there on YouTube.

Thanks mate. I'll dig deeper.
I like watching Japanese videos, even though I don't understand. With this graft all I really want to know which is best. I prefer the approach actually.

 

[Shibui]

I don't think it matters what species you are grafting. All methods should work. The best method is the one you are familiar with and works for you.
Approach graft is much more certain so great for less practiced growers.

 

[Harunobu]

Does this variety really backbud that badly? I can kind of see how sparse it grew from where the branches are right now. Really thought this cultivar was more bushy. Clicking the title and seeing the thickness/age of the plant, I was really going to say 'Isn't it much easier to grow a new branch there?'. But maybe that's not going to work?

 

[fredman]

Does this variety really backbud that badly? I can kind of see how sparse it grew from where the branches are right now. Really thought this cultivar was more bushy. Clicking the title and seeing the thickness/age of the plant, I was really going to say 'Isn't it much easier to grow a new branch there?'. But maybe that's not going to work?

I'm glad you noticed. My Satsuki did not grow well this year. I tried organic soil last year and that did not go well. I finally found some Kanuma and liquid acidic fertilizer in my country and things will be different next year.
I want to try a graft because i've never done that, and its a bare trunk where I want the branch. Don't know if a bud will pop there.
It's about 8 years old. When planted in Kanuma and fertilized with the right stuff, do you think buds will pop on the trunk?

 

[Shibui]

Just make sure the branch you graft onto is alive. I notice there seems to be a dead stub on that branch. The dead part sometimes extends part way down one side of the branch below. Graft will not work on dead wood no matter how good you are..

 

[fredman]

Just make sure the branch you graft onto is alive. I notice there seems to be a dead stub on that branch. The dead part sometimes extends part way down one side of the branch below. Graft will not work on dead wood no matter how good you are..

No that bottom branch is alive. The one that appears dead is one I cut. Shouldn't have done that. I just scraped it at the tip, and it's still good. Hope it doesn't die back over winter though.

 

[Harunobu]

I'm glad you noticed. My Satsuki did not grow well this year. I tried organic soil last year and that did not go well. I finally found some Kanuma and liquid acidic fertilizer in my country and things will be different next year.
I want to try a graft because i've never done that, and its a bare trunk where I want the branch. Don't know if a bud will pop there.
It's about 8 years old. When planted in Kanuma and fertilized with the right stuff, do you think buds will pop on the trunk?

With 'sparse' I meant that when it was grown as a whip, it grew really fast and the internodes are so long. I think you meant that the foliage it has on there is sparse? I guess a little bit.But it should just be growing. But yes, I would say that if you had made a real hard cut this year, you wouldn't get the best result.

Often when I see plants here I think 'put that thing in the full ground and let it grow for 6 years'. If you just want to practice grafting, go ahead I guess. I don't know anything about grafting. If you want to grow out the S-shape and flower display pads and do the satsuki thing as opposed to the bonsai thing, yeah you do want to grow out those foliage pads a lot more. Does it need a repot? The surface of your potting mixture looks quite old, judging by the colour. Maybe it will be reinvigorated by fresh kanuma without any dust, allowing better drainage and oxygenation and allowing it to grow nice new roots. If you want the best bonsai possible, I would put it in the ground and grow out those bottom branches to generate taper. Then make a hard cut to try to generate new branches on the trunk. All foliage on one single branch will mean you need to remove all of it at a single moment in time, leaving a big scar. Ideally, you have a bunch of them all growing from the lower trunk. I don't really know this cultivar, but judging from the rough bark, it is not a pure R.indicum. It may not like to put out new growth from the base like some satsuki naturally do without any pruning. The bark and the long internodes kind of tell this story. I know 'Fuji Mori' was an American or Australia/New Zealand-named satsuki, so I assumed it was a typical satsuki. Apparenty, it is very maruba/R.tamurae so not so bushy.

But since you aren't happy with the way it puts out new growth and you had a branch (partially die), shouldn't the first priority be to make it as healthy as possible?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

But since you aren't happy with the way it puts out new growth and you had a branch (partially die), shouldn't the first priority be to make it as healthy as possible?

I concur, up pot in new mix, or better still take Harunobu‘s advice and put it in the ground. Look for a spot with morning sun- afternoon shade/partial shade, feed it properly, treat it right and it should be bursting with growth by next year. In Fred C. Galle’s book, Azaleas he recommends lots of fine oak or milled pine bark or coarse (rough) Sphagnum peat in the mix. ( I toss in some soil from around one of your other azaleas too, if you have others in the ground, just for fun.)

As far as backbudding is concerned, I’ve literally butchered multiple species of evergreen Azaleas and Rhodys and had them all explode with growth afterwards, with no exceptions as long as I took care of them.

Check this cool care checklist out for once it’s back in a pot. (The months are cattywampus, of course)
http://satsukiazaleabonsai.org/satsuki-azalea-bonsai-care/

When you do repot, I personally recommend a 70% kanuma 30% chopped New Zealand Sphagnum moss mix. After all, you are in New Zealand. . But use what you think is best.

Once you get this tree healthy, then decide about grafting. The only grafts I’ve seen used on azaleas are approach grafts, not to say others aren’t used. You can see how to do these on Youtube.

Here’s a brief description of approach grafting on a satsuki By Darren Wong in Oakland, CA.
http://satsukiazaleabonsai.org/approach-grafting-by-darren-wong/

Finally, there is an inexpensive book (US $18) called “Japanese Satsuki Azaleas” (2004) that describes approach grafting and lots of other great techniques and shaping ideas on Satsuki. It can be purchased at Bonsai Tonight.

Approach grafts on Satsuki are mentioned in multiple other books including A Brocade Pillow (1984) and Bonsai Techniques for Satsuki (1979), and have withstood the test of time.

Good luck and cheers
DSD sends

 

[fredman]

Thanks very much everyone for your input. Yeah I agree it needs some ground growing. Thing is I have about 12 in a grow bed for the last 3 years. They grow, but still slowish. I added some pine bark and fine black peat moss to the soil when I planted them (not enough bark I think though) I think that soil must be compacted by now. Maybe I should remove the top 6 inches and refill with a mix of pine bark and pumice. I have access to bulk pine and pumice. No course shredded spagnum peat here that I know of. I can add some black peat fines again for acidity...can't I?
I eventually found a liquid acid fertilizer (not easy to get in NZ) so from now on I can feed them properly to.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Some thoughts....
Hmm... what’s your soil pH... likely it’s already acidic if this report still holds true, so you shouldn’t need much more .... however a fertilizer like Miracid will help provide micronutrients too. For slow growth .could also be that you just have a naturally slow growing variety of satsuki. I have a Kikusui that leafs out really well, but will likely take most of a decade to get to a decent size. Milled pine bark in profusion, like 50% works well, some Southern growers use it pure to plant former landscape azaleas into for a year to get them strong before they pot them. If it were me I’d not use peat fines whatsoever. I’ll bet you can a get NZ sphagnum peat moss (ph 4.8) where you are at.... I chop it up with an old kitchen knife, or even use scissors. Check it out and use that in your mix and see what happens.
cheers
DSD sends

 

[River's Edge]

Thread grafts are easier from my point of view! The slender extensions lend themselves to thread grafting. On the other hand they can be brittle so one needs to be careful. Here is an example from a few weeks ago. I used cuttings from the same tree that I rooted over the past two or three years to get the height and strength I desired. if you look closely there are two thread grafts. The first picture shows the parent plant and cuttings prior to thread grafting. The second picture is taken on the bench after the thread grafting.

 

[fredman]

Some thoughts....
Hmm... what’s your soil pH... likely it’s already acidic if this report still holds true, so you shouldn’t need much more .... however a fertilizer like Miracid will help provide micronutrients too. For slow growth .could also be that you just have a naturally slow growing variety of satsuki. I have a Kikusui that leafs out really well, but will likely take most of a decade to get to a decent size. Milled pine bark in profusion, like 50% works well, some Southern growers use it pure to plant former landscape azaleas into for a year to get them strong before they pot them. If it were me I’d not use peat fines whatsoever. I’ll bet you can a get NZ sphagnum peat moss (ph 4.8) where you are at.... I chop it up with an old kitchen knife, or even use scissors. Check it out and use that in your mix and see what happens.
cheers
DSD sends

At the moment the Ph is neutral. It has been up to 9.0 in the past. I monitor it regularly and add sulphuric acid to lower it. I installed a house filter system so the water is well purified.
Here in little old NZ there's only one big company that has the rights to harvest spagnum moss down in the deep south. They distribute it to wholesalers so don't know if they do peat also. I'll dig into that.

Interesting..I just went and compared the ground ones to the potted ones. They are all the same age. Got them as young cuttings from a friend. Those in pots are much thicker than the ground planted ones. That says a lot about the soil I have them in atm.
Miracid (like soooo many other things) aren't available in NZ. The ONLY liquid fertilizer for acid loving plants available here now is this from Scott's osmocote. At least it's better than what I used up to now.

 

[Harunobu]

Yeah, you want a lower pH. If your soil buffers your water to pH of 9, the most ideal thing to do would be to create a raised bed with peat. Or grow them in pots But do they get chlorosis?

 

[fredman]

Yeah, you want a lower pH. If your soil buffers your water to pH of 9, the most ideal thing to do would be to create a raised bed with peat. Or grow them in pots But do they get chlorosis?

No like I said the water is neutral. In summer when it don't rain I water them by hand with Ph 6.0 water. No I did not notice chlorosis yet.
I have to say I didn't put much effort into learning about cultivating azalea in the past. I just plodded along...basically. Lately I have a new vigor for them and learnt much about how to properly keep them.
I'm very confident about next year. They've thicken up some (some up to an inch+) so have a good base to start off from...again