Graft on Satsuki..?

fredman

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Or grow them in pots
Yeah i'll grow them in pots...in Kanuma. I'll leave some in the ground in pine and pumice (and hopefully chopped spagnum peat, if I can find some) to see how they do.
The ones in pots have been grown with only pumice and pine bark...fertilized with only general fertilizer. I never had any liquid ferts for acid plants.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Thread grafts are easier from my point of view! The slender extensions lend themselves to thread grafting. On the other hand they can be brittle so one needs to be careful. Here is an example from a few weeks ago. I used cuttings from the same tree that I rooted over the past two or three years to get the height and strength I desired. if you look closely there are two thread grafts. The first picture shows the parent plant and cuttings prior to thread grafting. The second picture is taken on the bench after the thread grafting.
Nice Job @River’s Edge!
I knew it was technically possible, but had never seen it done on azaleas nor found it done in any texts or sites yet. Curious. How did you thread the extensions leaves through the trunk without disturbing them... wrap them with Saran Wrap, or just “thread the needle”?
Awesome!
DSD sends
 

Deep Sea Diver

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At the moment the Ph is neutral. It has been up to 9.0 in the past. I monitor it regularly and add sulphuric acid to lower it. I installed a house filter system so the water is well purified.
Here in little old NZ there's only one big company that has the rights to harvest spagnum moss down in the deep south. They distribute it to wholesalers so don't know if they do peat also. I'll dig into that.

Interesting..I just went and compared the ground ones to the potted ones. They are all the same age. Got them as young cuttings from a friend. Those in pots are much thicker than the ground planted ones. That says a lot about the soil I have them in atm.
Miracid (like soooo many other things) aren't available in NZ. The ONLY liquid fertilizer for acid loving plants available here now is this from Scott's osmocote. At least it's better than what I used up to now.
It’s good you’ve got a new interest as azaleas are pretty nice trees. .....ok, to be clear, Sphagnum moss comes from peat bogs. The Sphagnum moss is the living part on top, the Sphagnum peat is the brown decayed Sphagnum on the bottom of the big. Here’s a quick read on that.
cheers
DSD sends
 

River's Edge

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Nice Job @River’s Edge!
I knew it was technically possible, but had never seen it done on azaleas nor found it done in any texts or sites yet. Curious. How did you thread the extensions leaves through the trunk without disturbing them... wrap them with Saran Wrap, or just “thread the needle”?
Awesome!
DSD sends
Combination, used the buddy type grafting tape and a thin piece of wire. First wrapped the end leaves just as emerging with the stretchy tape. Passed the tin wire along side but extended by several inches to pass through the trunk first! Then wrapped the apical leaf portion to the wire and passed it through. Disassembled carefully, first unwrap wire and remove in same direction as apical tip. Then slowly and carefully unwrap leaf tip! After that the usual toothpick trick for tight fit and cut paste to seal entrance and exit!
It is best to prepare additional cuttings than required, they can be brittle even when juvenile. And take ones time with slowly bending or fitting, leaving some adjustment and no tight bends.
 

fredman

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Very interesting article about peat and moss. Thanks. I did not realise that.
I emailed the company here that mine the sphagnum to hear if they do the peat to.
 

Harunobu

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No like I said the water is neutral. In summer when it don't rain I water them by hand with Ph 6.0 water. No I did not notice chlorosis yet.
I have to say I didn't put much effort into learning about cultivating azalea in the past. I just plodded along...basically. Lately I have a new vigor for them and learnt much about how to properly keep them.
I'm very confident about next year. They've thicken up some (some up to an inch+) so have a good base to start off from...again :p

A pH of 9 is really really high. Not a soil expert, but it might be that that measurement is off. Anyway, since it is logarithmic, your azalea will experience a pH that's 10 000 times too high in terms of molecule concentrations. So the water must have had an effect. Usually, I would say that filtering water will not have a large effect because the buffer capacity of the soil must vastly outcompete the buffer capacity of the water. So surprised to hear you didn't see health issues in your pH 9 soil (except for decreased vigor maybe?).
 

fredman

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A pH of 9 is really really high. Not a soil expert, but it might be that that measurement is off. Anyway, since it is logarithmic, your azalea will experience a pH that's 10 000 times too high in terms of molecule concentrations. So the water must have had an effect. Usually, I would say that filtering water will not have a large effect because the buffer capacity of the soil must vastly outcompete the buffer capacity of the water. So surprised to hear you didn't see health issues in your pH 9 soil (except for decreased vigor maybe?).
I always check pH before I fill the watering tank. The bonsais in pots and the ones in the ground are watered by hand. If the pH is to high I adjust with sulphuric acid to 6.0 ;)
 

Harunobu

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Yes, but your water has no buffer capacity. If I take demineralized water and I see a pH of 8 and I add a drop of acid, it can go to pH 2. Then if you add three drops of NaOH, it goes to pH 11. So what we do in the lab is mix a weak base or acid and it's salt that dissociates at a certain pH. If the concentration of the buffer is high, you can add many drops of sulfuric acid, and the pH won't move. The weak base and salt just move in equilibrium while the pH stays the same.

If your soil is very basic, it is so for a reason. There are minerals that act as weak bases at remove H+ from water, increasing the pH. Your water with a tiny bit of acid could have it's acid completely neutralized and your pH 6.0 water will have no effect at all on soil pH. This also doesn't mean that you should add even more acid and have a really low pH. Or try to buffer the water. I think it is more beneficial to remove CaCO3 ions from water, because they make it more basic and they would accumulate. You could still treat the soil with sulfur compounds, and that will generate sulfuric acid, and that will lower soil pH. Don't know the details about how to do that. But just adding a very concentrated acid could be very dangerous.

Now maybe I am overthinking this and the roots experience a nice pH 6 for as long as your water is there, because there is just that much more water than soil particles and basic minerals. That would explain why your azalea seem to do decent when the soil if it were actually pH 9 should be deadly. But my point still stands that once your water that is pH 6 hits the soil, it could suddenly be very different.
 
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fredman

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Ah I see...I think :p
Best then is to test the ground pH where the azalea grows in. If the pH is basic or alkaline, treat with something like elemental sulphur...?
I actually would prefer adding heaps of chopped sphagnum peat to the ground to acidify it.
 
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Harunobu

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I thought you said it was tested and it was pH 9? If so, whatever you are doing now is already excellent as pH 9 is so high, most plants will struggle, not just acid-loving plants. If you told me 'I want to grow azalea in pH 9.', then I would tell you 'But they will die' (and I guess they don't so I am wrong?).

Safest would be to use a heaps of peat and mix it in or use raised beds based off peat. Not sure how viable that is in your situation. Elemental sulfur can be used, as that will result in sulfuric acid. As someone who spends some time setting the pH of very simple watery solutions, not sure how accurately you can go from 9 to 5.5. Both because of buffering and because of the logarithmic nature of the scale. I would try to ask around in your area or ask people who have experience with acidifying very basic soil.

Point being that saying 'I want to grow azaleas in pH 9 soil, so I will just add Sulphuric acid to my water set to pH 6, and that will be fine.' does not hold. But saying 'I am currently growing azalea, but they are not thriving and I just learned soil acidity may be an issue where I can improve, so I will now explore how." does.
 

fredman

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Nah it's not 9.0 now. As a said above it is 7.0 now. In the past it has been as high as 9.0.
Although I still would've liked the pH lower for the ones in the ground, they actually grew quite well.
I've decided to take most out the ground (come spring) and get them into pots. Now that I have a source for Kanuma they should go better.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Ok, I reread this thread and It looks to me though you haven’t tested your soil yet. Is this accurate?

Also that your water can sometimes get as high as pH 9.0? ((Which is way high...?)

If so, please get a decent soil testing kit (they aren’t expensive) and test your soil 3x by your azaleas so we can really see the whole picture.

Then please do the same with your Water (3x..)

Then write back with both sets of results (NPK. will be helpful too- these tests are in the soil test kit usually) and we will be able to tell if you really have a soil issue, a water issue, or both, or something else.
As an aside I sent you this report from you local government that indicates the soil in your area is overall generally acidic. http://www.gw.govt.nz/assets/counci...eport for the Wellington Region, 2010 -11.pdf f

Cheers
js sends
 

fredman

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Ok, I reread this thread and It looks to me though you haven’t tested your soil yet. Is this accurate?

Also that your water can sometimes get as high as pH 9.0? ((Which is way high...?)

If so, please get a decent soil testing kit (they aren’t expensive) and test your soil 3x by your azaleas so we can really see the whole picture.

Then please do the same with your Water (3x..)

Then write back with both sets of results (NPK. will be helpful too- these tests are in the soil test kit usually) and we will be able to tell if you really have a soil issue, a water issue, or both, or something else.
As an aside I sent you this report from you local government that indicates the soil in your area is overall generally acidic. http://www.gw.govt.nz/assets/council-publications/Annual Soil Quality Monitoring Report for the Wellington Region, 2010 -11.pdf f

Cheers
js sends
Thanks I saw the link but the soil never really was the issue for me. They are in a grow bed that I filled with bags of store bought compost, bark, pumice, fine peat and fluffy soil I got from a landscaping lot. Like I said they grew well enough in there. They're coming out in spring. I am sending tests soon for the vegetable garden, so i'll include that section. Will be interesting to see.
Council water did go high in the past (2+ years ago), but lately it's neutral.
All is actually good here :D
 
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