Grafting cork bark black pine onto Scots pine?

[leatherback]

Hi All,

I was wondering whether there is a compatibility list somewhere for grafting pines.

I have an ancient Japanese Cork Bark Pine. Last year I tried cuttings, and failed. I was thinking I should try to graft some cutoffs onto rootstock. Buut.. I know of no source for Jap Black Pine youngsters. I do have easy access to Scots pine however.

Do they pair well? Anybody know?

[and yes, grafting into the roots more or less is what is needed for the long term reasonable results with these]

 

[Pitoon]

Hi All,

I was wondering whether there is a compatibility list somewhere for grafting pines.

I have an ancient Japanese Cork Bark Pine. Last year I tried cuttings, and failed. I was thinking I should try to graft some cutoffs onto rootstock. Buut.. I know of no source for Jap Black Pine youngsters. I do have easy access to Scots pine however.

Do they pair well? Anybody know?

[and yes, grafting into the roots more or less is what is needed for the long term reasonable results with these]

JBP are double flush....Scots are single flush. Other than your availability why would you want to do that grafting, even assuming they are compatible? If you grow JBP by seed in two years you can easily graft on to them. I'm positive someone has them available there in the EU, you just have to do a little bit of work to find them.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Not sure about sylvestris but they do seem to take on aleppo pine. For what it's worth, alleppo pine is as bulletproof as scots pine, as far as I can tell.

 

[River's Edge]

Hi All,

I was wondering whether there is a compatibility list somewhere for grafting pines.

I have an ancient Japanese Cork Bark Pine. Last year I tried cuttings, and failed. I was thinking I should try to graft some cutoffs onto rootstock. Buut.. I know of no source for Jap Black Pine youngsters. I do have easy access to Scots pine however.

Do they pair well? Anybody know?

[and yes, grafting into the roots more or less is what is needed for the long term reasonable results with these]

Any access to Austrian Black Pine?

 

[leatherback]

why would you want to do that grafting, even assuming they are compatible?

Well, if they are compatible, why would you not do this?
As sylvestris is native to my region, it will like handle many pests and diseases well.

 

[Maiden69]

From the little bit that I have heard over at Mirai, the only rootstock that Ryan thinks can provide the needs for a JBP has been the Ponderosa roots. I think he states that you could graft different SPECIES onto the same GENUS but that doesn't mean that the foliage will be able to thrive. Kinda like grafting white pine onto black pine root stock, so I guess what you propose would be the same as grafting black pine onto white pine roots... it will take, but how long will it last?

 

[Pitoon]

Well, if they are compatible, why would you not do this?
As sylvestris is native to my region, it will like handle many pests and diseases well.

Rootstock controls the growth above the soil line. Growth rates can be different above and below the soil line causing inverse/reverse taper. Physical characteristics may not match and blend in such as JPW grafted onto JBP roots. Even if two sperate species can be grafted together the graft union can be a weak spot prone to breakage.

 

[leatherback]

it will take, but how long will it last?

Growth rates can be different above and below the soil line causing inverse/reverse taper. Physical characteristics may not match and blend in such as JPW grafted onto JBP roots. Even if two sperate species can be grafted together the graft union can be a weak spot prone to breakage.

Which is why I asked for knowledge.... Do they pair well..?

 

[Maiden69]

Which is why I asked for knowledge.... Do they pair well..?

I would say no, because the rootstock is (almost certain although cork bark JBP is weak as well) weaker than the scion. Just like @Pitoon mentions above, that will lead to separation at the graft union, as it even happens with some JWP/JBP trees. Also, from what I understand, even JBP corkers are grafted onto regular JBP roots.

 

[rockm]

I don't know if a cork bark black pine would graft to anything other than black pine stock, but I do know that most cork bark black pine bonsai are grafted to smoother bark black pine. That graft pretty much produces a "mismatch" of bark at the bases of the bonsai... Every one of them I have seen has this feature, sometimes more noticeable than others.

Look carefully at the photos in the links and below. A sometimes very abrupt transition to cork bark. I have heard that is because the corkiness can be variable in the offspring of the cork bark mutants, making grafting the only way to reproduce it reliably.

Historical Tree Spotlight: A Cork Bark Collaboration — National Bonsai Foundation

For this iteration of our Historical Tree Spotlight series , we unveil the history and creative process behind a special cork bark Japanese black pine ( Pinus thunbergii ‘Corticosa’), which is truly a rare specimen. It is a variation of the conventional Japanese black pine (P. thunbergii) found

www.bonsai-nbf.org

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/42362052731443476/

 

[Maiden69]

I don't know if a cork bark black pine would graft to anything other than black pine stock, but I do know that most cork bark black pine bonsai are grafted to smoother bark black pine. That graft pretty much produces a "mismatch" of bark at the bases of the bonsai... Every one of them I have seen has this feature, sometimes more noticeable than others.

Look carefully at the photos in the links and below. A sometimes very abrupt transition to cork bark. I have heard that is because the corkiness can be variable in the offspring of the cork bark mutants, making grafting the only way to reproduce it reliably.

Historical Tree Spotlight: A Cork Bark Collaboration — National Bonsai Foundation

For this iteration of our Historical Tree Spotlight series , we unveil the history and creative process behind a special cork bark Japanese black pine ( Pinus thunbergii ‘Corticosa’), which is truly a rare specimen. It is a variation of the conventional Japanese black pine (P. thunbergii) found

www.bonsai-nbf.org

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/42362052731443476/

Yes, but they are not always bad looking.

This is one that Ryan repotted and worked on 2021.

 

[Pitoon]

The key for this graft to look decent is to graft as low as possible......if possible below the soil line.

This grafting combination is no different than say grafting a rough bark JM onto a plain JM rootstock. However, this graft can be even more pronounced as the roots of a rough bark JM will become rough as well over time while being grafted on a plain JM it will clearly stand out with smooth bark roots.

 

[leatherback]

The key for this graft to look decent is to graft as low as possible......if possible below the soil line.

and yes, grafting into the roots more or less is what is needed for the long term reasonable results with these

That graft pretty much produces a "mismatch" of bark at the bases of the bonsai.

As does mine

 

[Pitoon]

That graft pretty much produces a "mismatch" of bark at the bases of the bonsai.

As does mine
View attachment 469152

Below the soil line is best for this graft. Use JBP rootstock that's 2-3rys old. They will be thick enough to graft onto yet still small enough that as the corking begins it will be less pronounced.

 

[Scorpius]

I have one cutting grown corker and the rest are grafted. I don't mind the grafted ones as long as the graft is as low as possible on the rootstock.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Grafting compatibility should be Genus and down, right? So technically any genus of Pinus should be a graft candidate.

 

[Srt8madness]

Along the lines of this thread-

I have a corker which needs a large branch removed, which has sub branches and maybe 10 growing shoots at the ends. I'd love to graft a couple myself, but want to give the rest away to club members. Is there a way to safely keep the scion for a couple of days? I.e. wrap in wet paper towel, close in plastic baggie? I've seen 'em stay green for weeks after removal, so the mystery is when do those cells stop being functional.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Some years ago I bought a corker JBP from Wayne Jupp that was on Pinus strobus roots.

Pretty much any pine species can be used as rootstock for JBP, or JWP for that matter. For those of us in the northeast, P strobus is a good rootstock because its roots are tolerant of cold wet winters, strobus can tolerate flooded soils in winter. (only in winter). In EU sylvestris might be best choice. Western USA, ponderosa is a better choice.

Choose your rootstock appropriate for your growing region.

 

[Pitoon]

I cannot speak on pines whether they are all compatible. I believe there hasn't been enough research (trial and error) conducted......but I can speak on the Genus "Prunus". This Genus is quite large and it's been proven not all prunus species are compatible.

 

[leatherback]

Oh wow, never got notifications of the follow-up comments. Thank you for the thoughts. As I had a sylvestris seedling and a branch that needed to come off, I took a plunge.