Grafting Pine Branches

[Dan W.]

Hi, I'm curious whether any of you have experience grafting pine branches. I'm not very interested in grafting one tree to another base...(i.e. personally I don't really like the transition from rough JBP bark to smooth JWP)

I read that Michael Hagedorn grafted JBP branches on to one of his ponderosa's and it is doing very well. What I'm interested in is the possiblity of grafting other native species to ponderosa... rather than the Japanese species.

Does anyone have any experience grafting say... pinyon, mugo or lodgepole on to ponderosa branches? Even if not, what are your thoughts on this?

I will continue working with native ponderosa needles as well but I'm curious whether this might be a viable option for shorter needles.

Here is a link to Michael Hegedorn's JBP grafted Pondy.

http://crataegus.com/2011/04/25/black-pine-grafted-ponderosa-styled/

Thanks!

Dan

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I have seen this done at Chris Kirk's nursery Telperion Farms where I know he is grafting some JBP to a killer ponderosa base... its an interesting option and I would probably prefer to graft the JBP or JRP to ponderosa over some of the more native pines... unless you are working with contorta contorta then you might get some decent foliage?

The JBP foliage is string and easy to manage this gives you a lot to work with when it comes to working with grafted foliage ...

Hi, I'm curious whether any of you have experience grafting pine branches. I'm not very interested in grafting one tree to another base...(i.e. personally I don't really like the transition from rough JBP bark to smooth JWP)

I read that Michael Hagedorn grafted JBP branches on to one of his ponderosa's and it is doing very well. What I'm interested in is the possiblity of grafting other native species to ponderosa... rather than the Japanese species.

Does anyone have any experience grafting say... pinyon, mugo or lodgepole on to ponderosa branches? Even if not, what are your thoughts on this?

I will continue working with native ponderosa needles as well but I'm curious whether this might be a viable option for shorter needles.

Here is a link to Michael Hegedorn's JBP grafted Pondy.

http://crataegus.com/2011/04/25/black-pine-grafted-ponderosa-styled/

Thanks!

Dan

 

[Dan W.]

Thanks,

I'm trying to avoid JBP though. JRP would propably work but I have read differing reviews on whether the grafted tree accepts it's hardiness from the JBP or the Pondy, and JBP is not hardy here in WY.

Contorta is Shore Pine?... Or Lodgepole in my neck of the woods. Is my memory serving me right here?

 

[Dan W.]

Ok, I did some homework.

Shore Pine is contorta contorta and Rocky Mountain Lodgepoe is contorta latifolia. Do you have any experience with latifolia? I know you're in WA so more likely the sore pine.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Ok, I did some homework.

Shore Pine is contorta contorta and Rocky Mountain Lodgepoe is contorta latifolia. Do you have any experience with latifolia? I know you're in WA so more likely the sore pine.

yeah but I grew up an hour west of you ... however latifolia does not usually make good bonsai as its hard to find a good one.... for foliage i would presume they are similar... never grafted either of them to ponderosa

 

[crust]

Although not native you could try grafting varieties of scots pine on your pondos. I have done this sucessfully on old pondos using one point grafts with 4 inch potted scots. I found it is helpful to get the pondo zouped up some before you do it though. It will be hardy there with most varieties of scots.

 

[Dan W.]

Thanks Crust,

That might work well. I don't have any experience with Scots, but I know the Europeans like them a lot. How are they to work with?

 

[BrianBay9]

yeah but I grew up an hour west of you ... however latifolia does not usually make good bonsai as its hard to find a good one.... for foliage i would presume they are similar... never grafted either of them to ponderosa

You can find good lodgpole pine specimens if you search the rocky ridges where you find good ponderosa. They are not as twisted as the ponderosa, but can have good trunk movement. I have collected many. Check carefully for signs of dwarf mistletoe, however....they seem to be prone to it.

Brian

 

[Dan W.]

Feel free to share pictures. The only lodgepole I've seen in training so far is Ryan Neil's. But I do plan on looking for some this spring.

Also, how do you like working with them? ie: backbudding, candle work, foliage....atc...?

 

[Ang3lfir3]

You can find good lodgpole pine specimens if you search the rocky ridges where you find good ponderosa. They are not as twisted as the ponderosa, but can have good trunk movement. I have collected many. Check carefully for signs of dwarf mistletoe, however....they seem to be prone to it.

Brian

I've actually collected them before.... they didn't make it ... turns out I would rather spend my time on ponderosa, pinus flexilus and rmj (totally a personal choice) ..... for lodgepole we have the contorta contortas that we collected in Canada .... they have superior bark and foliage characteristics


Now what I really want to see is someone successfully collect some of the Mountain Mahogany ...

 

[crust]

Thanks Crust,

That might work well. I don't have any experience with Scots, but I know the Europeans like them a lot. How are they to work with?

The species is I believe the best for grafting based on all the factors I care about, which includes hardiness, vigor, needle reductability, needle straightness, numerous varieties to chose from, to name a few. Be warned though there are many many varieties of scots and some are less hardy than others such as some Spanish seed sources. The more I researched this (10 years ago) the more I realized picking good seedling stock is important but I was bewildered by all the info and never really found a expert who said which species would be the best based on all your requirements. The christmas tree industry has created a market for many of the variants that are considerably different in needle length color hardiness and vigor. Some variants are just locations ( Southern Spain, northern France etc.) of seed source with accompaning characteristic. Some variants like Pinus sylvestris 'Watereri' are truly separate from the mother species and have been cultivated for a long time. Of course there are a plethra of dwarfs which I never have used for grafting and was always told they are so slow they would take forever to develop but gee they are very cool and very compact. Of the non dwarfs I have had 'French Blue', 'Watereri', suggested. I am sure everything has change though.

Anyway after all that I also consider the scots to be good because we have a great sources over the pond that can help us manage it and work out its idiosyncrasies.

I used small seedlings I bought from Mussers trees (there are many good seedling sources) I potted them up and used inarch and one point grafts during the height growing season. when you go to remove the seedling base in a year or two once they have joined girdle it shallowly first then deeper over a couple weeks. I am still trying to work out how to remove the mother foliage of the pondos so far it has been only after the scots has gained some size and slowly remove over a few seasons but then most of the Pondos I tried were pretty big. The trees are still in development. The process has taken me along time and it is heart breaking when near the end a tree expires which has happened to me.

 

[Dav4]

Crust, just wondering, how do you overwinter the trees with grafts that have not completely taken? Do you provide any extra protection above and beyond what you normally give your trees? Great discussion, by the way.

Dave

 

[Dan W.]

I've actually collected them before.... they didn't make it ... turns out I would rather spend my time on ponderosa, pinus flexilus and rmj (totally a personal choice) ..... for lodgepole we have the contorta contortas that we collected in Canada .... they have superior bark and foliage characteristics


Now what I really want to see is someone successfully collect some of the Mountain Mahogany ...

Thanks, I'll do what I can with the Mountain Mahogany. And I love the 5 needle pines! I have a couple of small Flexilis (limber) that I bought from Harold in CO; one blue globe and the other is regular flexilis. There are some nice ones on my collecting grounds that I've been eyeballing as well. If you have any special tips for flexilis care let me know. Also any tips for collecting MM would be great....but I think I remember you stating in another thread that they are a pain to keep alive after collection...?

 

[Dan W.]

Thanks for the info Crust,

I will keep all this in mind, and I think scots is definitely worth a shot at grafting. You might contact Michael Hagedorn on his blog to see how he went about removing the parent foliage. Of course it may be different with black pine foliage than scots?

Thanks for possibly saving us from some of that same heartbreak.

 

[crust]

Dav4: No extra protection was given. They were all put away in a unheated storage facility though because I have one. The danger if left out is smashing and wrenching of the graft by ice and snow or evil birds or wayward stomping cows. The graft union is wired craftily and multiply. Tight fitting well secured graft unions are important as is speedy growth, at least this is what I found. Unfortunately the last three years I have been gone overseas and my wife maintained them for me and under my advice did so by modestly fertilizing so the grafts have grown pretty slowly and have been unwired thus now I have some new challenges.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Thanks, I'll do what I can with the Mountain Mahogany. And I love the 5 needle pines! I have a couple of small Flexilis (limber) that I bought from Harold in CO; one blue globe and the other is regular flexilis. There are some nice ones on my collecting grounds that I've been eyeballing as well. If you have any special tips for flexilis care let me know. Also any tips for collecting MM would be great....but I think I remember you stating in another thread that they are a pain to keep alive after collection...?

I don't have much 5 needle care experience yet but I do know they will survive around here with proper care....

as to the Mountain Mahogany .... we don't know of anyone who has successfully collected one.... but they are such neat looking little trees I hope someday someone figures it out...

 

[Dan W.]

Here is a Limber Pine that I absolutely love! It's quite solid in the rock though and it would take some heavy duty masonry to get it out which would probably kill it...so I'm content to admire it where it is...unless I have some revelation of a way to get it out alive...


I'll see what I can do about the mountain mahogany...no guarantees though.

 

[crust]

Nice looking limber Dan. Perhaps I can come graft for you inexchange for collecting time?

 

[Smoke]

Mountain Mahogany grows like weeds all around here and also in Mojave with the junipers.

I think it's charecteristics make it in the same family of bonsai plants as desiriable but much like manzanita in its pot charecteristics.

I went to Matt Chroust's home (owner of bonsaiTALK) a couple times and the mountain mahogany were growing across the street from his house on a cliff side about 30 feet tall.

 

[Dan W.]

Thanks Crust, I might have to take you up on that. I'm not sure whether any of my trees will be ready yet this summer. I collected my first ones last year so I want to see how they fare this spring. I'm pretty confident that they are healthy, but how long would you wait to try grafting?