Grapefruit Tree

[LemonBonsai]

So im wondering if the tree would be ok if I repotted it now? Its just starting to go into fall where I am. I know repotting should be done in spring or summer for citrus but the soil that is in, while free draining turns hydroponic and is incredibly frusterating to fully water the thing. Half the time im not sure if its fully watered because the middle is what stays dry and i cant dig that far down to check because of roots. Would it be safe to repot now into a better free draining soil?

 

[LittleDingus]

So im wondering if the tree would be ok if I repotted it now? Its just starting to go into fall where I am. I know repotting should be done in spring or summer for citrus but the soil that is in, while free draining turns hydroponic and is incredibly frusterating to fully water the thing. Half the time im not sure if its fully watered because the middle is what stays dry and i cant dig that far down to check because of roots. Would it be safe to repot now into a better free draining soil?

First, my official line:

If the center of the root ball is staying too dry, the repot is NOT likely to be "gentle". You're likely going to need to be breaking into that center ball and breaking it up to get fresh soil into there. That's a lot of root damage. Any amount of fresh soil around the dry root ball doesn't really help much So, given that, one half-way measure that could get you to a safer repot time might be to get a solid chopstick/dowel/metal rod/thin spike/etc...and bore some drain holes into the dry hard center to allow air/water to get into there easier. Think what the landscape guy does to the lawn for the grass. You might be able to open up the soil quite a bit that way without having to repot now. Unless the tree appears in distress, you could even start with drilling in a few holes wait for a week or two and see how it goes before drilling in a few more or not. I have done this for some of my trees to get them through a season or two until a safer time to repot.

Now, my un-official line which probably aligns more with what you WANT to hear even though it's widely regarded "a bad idea". I do not endorse this approach.

However...winter before last my Key lime was loosing a lot of leaves without new growth going into the winter months. It was pretty spindly. I was worried about the soil I had it in and if the roots were suffering...all the same anxious thoughts you're having, etc... So, I repotted it in late December...Christmas day in fact because my wife was working that day and we didn't celebrate Christmas until a week later. That tree was in a big 5 gallon porch pot...nothing a respectable bonsai would ever get anywhere near. One of those vase shaped can't slide the dirt straight out must much around with a spade and pruning shears kind of pots. I mention all that because I can assure you...I disturbed the roots getting this plant out of there! The tree did live. I got over 100 limes off it this summer!

BUT...what I learned was 1) the soil was fine...easily good enough to make it through the winter though from just what I had seen from the surface, I had my doubts. 2) The roots were fine...not a problem there at all. 3) If I worried about my own children this much they'd all be walking around in bubbles with tip sensors that alerted my phone whenever they laid down! 4) Now I was not only worrying about the initial problem (lack of growth and losing old leaves) but NOW I had the additional worry that my ill advised repot killed it for sure! 5) Sometimes rules are made to be broken.

There are a lot of potential lessons one could take from my un-official line. I'll let you pick the one most suited to your frame of mind. I would encourage, however, that you consider less invasive practices such as my official line or whatever the good folks on this site recommend first. A tree depotted will not pot itself

 

[LemonBonsai]

First, my official line:

If the center of the root ball is staying too dry, the repot is NOT likely to be "gentle". You're likely going to need to be breaking into that center ball and breaking it up to get fresh soil into there. That's a lot of root damage. Any amount of fresh soil around the dry root ball doesn't really help much So, given that, one half-way measure that could get you to a safer repot time might be to get a solid chopstick/dowel/metal rod/thin spike/etc...and bore some drain holes into the dry hard center to allow air/water to get into there easier. Think what the landscape guy does to the lawn for the grass. You might be able to open up the soil quite a bit that way without having to repot now. Unless the tree appears in distress, you could even start with drilling in a few holes wait for a week or two and see how it goes before drilling in a few more or not. I have done this for some of my trees to get them through a season or two until a safer time to repot.

Now, my un-official line which probably aligns more with what you WANT to hear even though it's widely regarded "a bad idea". I do not endorse this approach.

However...winter before last my Key lime was loosing a lot of leaves without new growth going into the winter months. It was pretty spindly. I was worried about the soil I had it in and if the roots were suffering...all the same anxious thoughts you're having, etc... So, I repotted it in late December...Christmas day in fact because my wife was working that day and we didn't celebrate Christmas until a week later. That tree was in a big 5 gallon porch pot...nothing a respectable bonsai would ever get anywhere near. One of those vase shaped can't slide the dirt straight out must much around with a spade and pruning shears kind of pots. I mention all that because I can assure you...I disturbed the roots getting this plant out of there! The tree did live. I got over 100 limes off it this summer!

BUT...what I learned was 1) the soil was fine...easily good enough to make it through the winter though from just what I had seen from the surface, I had my doubts. 2) The roots were fine...not a problem there at all. 3) If I worried about my own children this much they'd all be walking around in bubbles with tip sensors that alerted my phone whenever they laid down! 4) Now I was not only worrying about the initial problem (lack of growth and losing old leaves) but NOW I had the additional worry that my ill advised repot killed it for sure! 5) Sometimes rules are made to be broken.

There are a lot of potential lessons one could take from my un-official line. I'll let you pick the one most suited to your frame of mind. I would encourage, however, that you consider less invasive practices such as my official line or whatever the good folks on this site recommend first. A tree depotted will not pot itself

Thanks I will wait it out and stick some dowels in the centre. Its very hard to water but I let it sit in a water bath for a while and top watered a bit. After that I used a knife to go around the edge of the pot and I was able to pull the whole thing out in one piece, and it looked watered. Roots also looked very healthy so since the tree is not losing leaves or in extreme distress I will try and put it off as long as possible.

 

[LittleDingus]

Thanks I will wait it out and stick some dowels in the centre. Its very hard to water but I let it sit in a water bath for a while and top watered a bit. After that I used a knife to go around the edge of the pot and I was able to pull the whole thing out in one piece, and it looked watered. Roots also looked very healthy so since the tree is not losing leaves or in extreme distress I will try and put it off as long as possible.

Don't take it out again just to get pics, but did you take pics while you had it out?

 

[LemonBonsai]

Don't take it out again just to get pics, but did you take pics while you had it out?

I did

 

[LittleDingus]

Those roots don't look bad at all

But, yeah, not the most open soil...and now that it's been pulled it out of the pot, there's a low resistance water channel down the side of the pot that the water will prefer to follow. That could make it a little harder to get the middle wet too. Be aware of that as you water.

If you have a dowel/chopstick you can push it down into the soil to somewhere near the middle of the pot and leave it. Whenever you want to check moisture, you can pull the chopstick. If the end it damp...it's fine.

You can loosen the soil up a bit by raking the top inch or so and/or poking the soil ball with a dowel/chopstick. You don't have to make the soil totally loose...just loose enough to help water to seep in and whet the roots. That can get you through the winter without a repot.

Seeing the roots though, there are a lot fewer there than I was envisioning. I was thinking you'd be ripping a lot of root just trying to comb out the root ball enough that new soil would matter. That plant is not root bound at all!

Being in Ontario, I'd guess it gets pretty dry in the winter in the house. You might get in the habit of feeling the leaves every time you look at it to make sure they aren't starting to dry out. My key lime leaves do stiffen a bit with age, but I can usually tell when they are starting to dry out due to under watering. That would be a sign you're having watering issues as well.

 

[LemonBonsai]

It has been 2 weeks since I was having this issue and it seems that all the effort ive put into this grapefruit has payed off well! I moved the tree down further then it was, changed the grow light to stay on for 11 hours daily. And started a schedule of dynagrow foliagepro and superthrive weekly for the tree and this is the same leaf as the last picture on this post (that tanline one)


Infact alot of the leaves look greener over the whole tree due to it getting sufficient food for 2 weeks. Although its still not as dark green as I would like it to be, its getting there!


Hasnt had any new growth since mid summer probably because I wasnt giving it enough food along with it being stressed over dry medium in the middle of the pot. I have gotten in the habbit of letting the tree sit in a water bath when it comes time to water which seems to have helped alot. There are some buds that are swelling on it so hopefully will get some new growth in the next month or so as the tree gets back to good health.

 

[LittleDingus]

It has been 2 weeks since I was having this issue and it seems that all the effort ive put into this grapefruit has payed off well! I moved the tree down further then it was, changed the grow light to stay on for 11 hours daily. And started a schedule of dynagrow foliagepro and superthrive weekly for the tree and this is the same leaf as the last picture on this post (that tanline one)
View attachment 336142

Infact alot of the leaves look greener over the whole tree due to it getting sufficient food for 2 weeks. Although its still not as dark green as I would like it to be, its getting there!
View attachment 336144

Hasnt had any new growth since mid summer probably because I wasnt giving it enough food along with it being stressed over dry medium in the middle of the pot. I have gotten in the habbit of letting the tree sit in a water bath when it comes time to water which seems to have helped alot. There are some buds that are swelling on it so hopefully will get some new growth in the next month or so as the tree gets back to good health.

Awesome! Glad you're learning how to manage your tree Start looking for flower buds in a few weeks

One caution, though...don't go too far the other way!

Fertilizer can build up in the soil if the tree is not actively growing...heck, even if the tree IS actively growing! You can get salt buildup and other issues that are no good for the tree. I find this less of an issue in inorganic soils, but it looks like you're tree is currently in an organic mix. Watch the rim of the pot and the drain holes. If you start seeing a crusty build up that flakes off with your fingernail, you might be overdoing the fertilizers...or you might have hard water. Either way...every couple of waterings, flush the pot with copious amounts of water. Make sure it all drains...but flushing the pot can help carry away some of the excess salts.

This is one of the issues with letting the soil dry completely between watering. Any dissolved salts fall out of solution as the moisture dries up and they become crystalized in the soil, on the roots, on the rim of the pot, etc...Once crystalized, they take time to re-dissolve. Over time you get a noticeable buildup. I have more of an issue with this in winter when I water less frequently than in the summer when I almost always flood the pots. Over winter, my habit is to "double water" every couple of weeks. I'll water normally in the morning then flush the pot with excess water later in the day...hopefully after some of the salts have had a chance to re-dissolve into a solution that can be washed out. More frequent but lower dosage of fertilizers can help avoid this issue as well.

Don't let the leaves get too dark. Dark green look healthy and are visually pleasing but if you want fruit or the most vigorous growth you might aim for more of a light/bright green. Dark green can signal not enough light. Yellow can signal too much light. There's some place in the middle that is more ideal. Pictures on the internet don't help much since there's a lot going on between different cameras and monitors as far as exact color balance goes, but it is something you can learn to judge for yourself over time. My lime tree gets very dark green in the winter compared to where it is now having just come in from long days of direct sun. Continue to intentionally observe the shade and tint of the leaves and you'll begin to learn how to adjust intensity and duration of your artificial light to be a little more optimum.

 

[LemonBonsai]

Awesome! Glad you're learning how to manage your tree Start looking for flower buds in a few weeks

One caution, though...don't go too far the other way!

Fertilizer can build up in the soil if the tree is not actively growing...heck, even if the tree IS actively growing! You can get salt buildup and other issues that are no good for the tree. I find this less of an issue in inorganic soils, but it looks like you're tree is currently in an organic mix. Watch the rim of the pot and the drain holes. If you start seeing a crusty build up that flakes off with your fingernail, you might be overdoing the fertilizers...or you might have hard water. Either way...every couple of waterings, flush the pot with copious amounts of water. Make sure it all drains...but flushing the pot can help carry away some of the excess salts.

This is one of the issues with letting the soil dry completely between watering. Any dissolved salts fall out of solution as the moisture dries up and they become crystalized in the soil, on the roots, on the rim of the pot, etc...Once crystalized, they take time to re-dissolve. Over time you get a noticeable buildup. I have more of an issue with this in winter when I water less frequently than in the summer when I almost always flood the pots. Over winter, my habit is to "double water" every couple of weeks. I'll water normally in the morning then flush the pot with excess water later in the day...hopefully after some of the salts have had a chance to re-dissolve into a solution that can be washed out. More frequent but lower dosage of fertilizers can help avoid this issue as well.

Don't let the leaves get too dark. Dark green look healthy and are visually pleasing but if you want fruit or the most vigorous growth you might aim for more of a light/bright green. Dark green can signal not enough light. Yellow can signal too much light. There's some place in the middle that is more ideal. Pictures on the internet don't help much since there's a lot going on between different cameras and monitors as far as exact color balance goes, but it is something you can learn to judge for yourself over time. My lime tree gets very dark green in the winter compared to where it is now having just come in from long days of direct sun. Continue to intentionally observe the shade and tint of the leaves and you'll begin to learn how to adjust intensity and duration of your artificial light to be a little more optimum.

This is a leaf from one of my lemon seedlings. This is the shade of green I would like to see in all my citrus in time!

Thanks for the tips on fertilizer!